Please help save Scotand

Asghar

I don't get how in the 2014 referendum the SNP wanted independence which would have also taken them out of the EU as a result, including the single market they keep harping on about. If they had won then, they would still now be waiting to actually join the EU as a separate nation.

Is it because they didn't actually vote to leave the EU themselves (being forced out) and want another referendum vote for independence and take themselves out.

Scotland are only in the EU via the UK, it is the UK who are signatories to all the EU treaties. Or is Sturgeon really deluded and thinks that they can become independent from the UK and somehow remain with the EU, is she going to walk into a future EU summit and say hi, we're Scotland.

Nasqueron

Asghar wrote: »

I don't get how in the 2014 referendum the SNP wanted independence which would have also taken them out of the EU as a result, including the single market they keep harping on about. If they had won then, they would still now be waiting to actually join the EU as a separate nation.

Is it because they didn't actually vote to leave the EU themselves (being forced out) and want another referendum vote for independence and take themselves out.

Scotland are only in the EU via the UK, it is the UK who are signatories to all the EU treaties. Or is Sturgeon really deluded and thinks that they can become independent from the UK and somehow remain with the EU, is she going to walk into a future EU summit and say hi, we're Scotland.

SNP believe their own nonsense about magically staying in the EU or transitioning in if they'd won in 2014 or somehow staying in despite the UK leaving with this new vote. None of them have sat down and actually looked at the basic facts:

EU have said this transition that Salmond talked up won't happen
Joining as a new state requires all members to vote yes, Spain have already said they will veto this to discourage the aspirations of the Basque region

Simply put they are in cloud cuckoo land and have this weird desire to throw off the UK rulers to gain control of their land then hand over most of their decision making power to the EU and become subject to all their laws (and I say this as realistic remain voter, not some "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" Breixt supporter)

teddysmum

I remember being very concerned about a matter and following the progress towards discussion, having signed the petition and numbers well exceeding the required figure.


I expected a discussion among a large number of MPs in the chamber, but that was not the case. The discussion was available to watch....about a dozen people, in a tiny room, some appearing to be asleep (not surprising as the speechmakers were useless), very little said, virtually no discussion and the matter was closed.


I won't waste my time 'signing' in future.

Conrad

I am very clear in my mind that the canny Scots will not vote to leave the UK. Last time round I was all for an independent Scotland - I believe in local autonomy, but jumping out of the UK and into Brussels doesn't make much sense. The UK will trade with Europe, there will be no meaningful hampering of trade so this argument Brexit means loss of EU trade is for the birds.

mrginge

Nasqueron wrote: »

SNP believe their own nonsense about magically staying in the EU or transitioning in if they'd won in 2014 or somehow staying in despite the UK leaving with this new vote. None of them have sat down and actually looked at the basic facts:

EU have said this transition that Salmond talked up won't happen
Joining as a new state requires all members to vote yes, Spain have already said they will veto this to discourage the aspirations of the Basque region

Simply put they are in cloud cuckoo land and have this weird desire to throw off the UK rulers to gain control of their land then hand over most of their decision making power to the EU and become subject to all their laws (and I say this as realistic remain voter, not some "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" Breixt supporter)

They are going to propose joining EEA/EFTA instead as a compromise to retain SM access, alongside getting away from the nasty UK govt.

It won't look like such a fantastic idea if the UK govt is already well advanced to negotiating SM access for the whole of the UK.
It will just end up looking like the same old guff about hating Westminster (i.e the tories).
We can only hope that the Scottish electorate realise that single-issue protest groups are usually very good at shouting and complaining, but complete garbage at actually running a country.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

OP, as a Scot facing the same difficulties I sympathise.
Hence I repeat the sentiment of a post I made just yesterday in another thread:

Posts such as the ones in these forums advocating independence from (mostly) Scots with often illogical and even at times deranged viewpoints have been seen many times.
Seen in our media too, since the SNP have surely shown that their only aim is independence at any cost.

I have said before what I will now say:
Not all Scots think the way of such posters.
Many Scots do not want independence.
Indeed many Scots do not even want another independence referendum.
Even considering recent polls these amount to half the Scottish population.
At least.

So consider the possibility that this too is part of a plan?
A type of "Make the English so fed up of us that they kick us out!" addition the the "Out at any cost" plan.
As I have said before.
Indeed this was the main reason I began posting in these forums.


And yes there are those SNP acolytes who would stoop so low.
See the "So long...." Scottish thread for ample evidence of that.
The determinedly pro-independence acolytes within will tell you that they represent a majority - or even a large portion - of what they call "typical" Scots.
This is not true.
Read the thread to see how many Scots (yes, and English) argue against their diatribes.

That is not to say that an independence vote, were it to happen soon, would not be close; indeed it may be.
Not, perhaps, as close as the SNP think.

Meantime as is correctly said in this thread, Sturgeon cares not one iota about the harm she is causing Scotland (and indeed she IS now causing harm).
Because she will attempt to blame it on Westminster, despite the fact that she has repeatedly been advised that a referendum prior to the UK leaving the EU will not happen.
Proof positive of the devious, nasty nature of this evil divisive group which have the temerity to call themselves a political party.

nkomp18

A lot of Scottish wouldn't have voted to stay in the UK had they known that they would also be flung out of Europe.

Sturgeon has a clear mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. More people voted to stay in the EU than those who voted to stay in the UK. How else do you propose to make that happen, knowing that this is the one singular truth?

the Brexit rollercoaster started with the referendum and all the arguments you use for that can now be used on the indyref2 referendum. There's nothing more hypocritical than someone who voted Brexit but somehow is against Scotland breaking away. It makes no sense, you can't have both

westernpromise

On that basis Sadiq Khan has a clear mandate to keep London in the EU.

Duh.

Scotland is just a region. Get over yourselves. You don't matter.

TrickyTree83

nkomp18 wrote: »

A lot of Scottish wouldn't have voted to stay in the UK had they known that they would also be flung out of Europe.

Sturgeon has a clear mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. More people voted to stay in the EU than those who voted to stay in the UK. How else do you propose to make that happen, knowing that this is the one singular truth?

the Brexit rollercoaster started with the referendum and all the arguments you use for that can now be used on the indyref2 referendum. There's nothing more hypocritical than someone who voted Brexit but somehow is against Scotland breaking away. It makes no sense, you can't have both

Yes yes, and the converse of that, where Scottish voters voted to stay in the UK and also to leave the EU don't exist.

The hilarity of claims that it's hypocritical is off the charts, what you're essentially trying to tell us is that it's hypocritical for the UK to leave a union but not for Scotland to leave a union? I'm afraid that door swings both ways, makes no points and wins no arguments.

TrickyTree83

westernpromise wrote: »

On that basis Sadiq Khan has a clear mandate to keep London in the EU.

Duh.

Scotland is just a region. Get over yourselves. You don't matter.

The more they come out of the woodwork the more rabid ideas on Scotland's relationship with the UK we're exposed to. Very few have legs, like the above.