Electric cars

Gloomendoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The issue was gearboxes, and the gearbox industry. You are trying to spin the survival of that industry by pointing to gearbox manufacturers "changing what they do", that is the survival of a company, not an industry.

If a coal company changes to mining tin, it is not the survival of the coal industry.

But it is still mining. It still uses most if not all the same workforce, plant and production methods. How many hairs do you want to split?

In ZFs case, it is merely evolution. They haven't jumped from making gearboxes to baked beans, they are still producing systems that incorporate many of the same components or use the same manufacturing processes that traditional gearboxes do.

Herzlos

IanMSpencer wrote: »

For an occasional special trip it is ok, but it is not a solution for regular long journeys as it will prematurely kill the battery, even with the careful recharging management.

Which fits perfectly with how most people use cars - lots of short trips (shopping, work, socializing), occasional long trips (holidays).

IanMSpencer

Herzlos wrote: »

Which fits perfectly with how most people use cars - lots of short trips (shopping, work, socializing), occasional long trips (holidays).

Quite, wasn't meaning to be contrary, like the point of larger batteries have significant benefits aside from range (better acceleration without trashing batteries do to excessive discharge rates; being able to operate the battery within its comfort zone and so on, reducing recharge cycles).

More the point is that it is unhealthy to focus on fast charging as a solution to range, simply as a means to deal with an occasional foray.

To extend that thinking, it means that rather than needing a massive array of charging, a reasonably small number of fast chargers would be ultimately required to support the exceptions. e.g. if the range of a car is 300 miles, how many people would need to recharge on a journey?

The only time in the UK I've driven a car much more than 200 miles in a day has been day trips to visit my father in hospital in Devon from the Midlands (about 150 miles, so feasible if there was a charge point available during the visit).

Even in my worst travelling days, I had a triangle of Sunderland, Cardiff and Kings Lynn, but each side was around 200 miles (I never travelled Sunderland to Cardiff except via home - no point overnighting in a hotel when kids to be seen).

That of course is one of the advantages of being Midlands based - it's easy to get away from. It would be interesting to consider travel profiles from different centres of population and their likely destinations. You could probably quite quickly identify fast charging hot spots. Obviously Birmingham would be one - who would want to stop there long?

Herzlos

I'm also curious as to whether some regions will look at solar roofs for trickle charging. I think the Leaf has an option that does something indirect.

But think of, say, an EV in spain with a 100w+ panel taking up most of the roof. It'll take a huge time to recharge the 40kwh battery, but cars spend a lot of time doing nothing.

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

But it is still mining. It still uses most if not all the same workforce, plant and production methods. How many hairs do you want to split?

None, that's why I'm trying to explain this carefully to you.

The issue was gearbox manufacturing, if ZF make something else, that is a company surviving, not an industry surviving.

I believe my explanation of a coal mining company switching to tin mining explains it all too. No hairs, none split.

Perhaps we should start again. Do you think the industry producing single ratio fixed reduction gears, will be as large (in monetary terms) as the current gearbox industry producing large, heavy and expensive multi gear variable devices with reverse gears too?

Martyn1981

IanMSpencer wrote: »

Even in my worst travelling days, I had a triangle of Sunderland, Cardiff and Kings Lynn, but each side was around 200 miles (I never travelled Sunderland to Cardiff except via home - no point overnighting in a hotel when kids to be seen).

When in Cardiff, you are welcome to granny charge from my outside socket anytime.

But joking apart, is there some sort of app that can put you in touch with a house offering something like this?

Martyn1981

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm also curious as to whether some regions will look at solar roofs for trickle charging. I think the Leaf has an option that does something indirect.

But think of, say, an EV in spain with a 100w+ panel taking up most of the roof. It'll take a huge time to recharge the 40kwh battery, but cars spend a lot of time doing nothing.

Hiya, apologies for the pedantry, but to take up most of a roof is probably more like 4kWp, with current 13% to 18%(ish) efficient panels. In ten years we'll probably have silicon/Perovskite panels in the low 30%, so roof space wise, you'll be able to get twice as much up there.

Note - in hot sunny conditions that 4kWp array will probably run at about 3kW.

almillar

Of course, what needs to be remembered is that fast charging is a Bad Thing for batteries

Experience for me on a personal level, and it looks like manufacturer's level, is that it's not as bad as had been feared.
Leaf has an option to stop fast charging at 80% to protect the battery.
Zoe has no such option - charging just slows down near (90%+ the top).
Soul EV (30kWh) stops at 94%.
VW invalidate your warranty if you rapid charge 3 times in a row!!

So there's already some protection built in, or scare tactics in a VW.

as it will prematurely kill the battery,

Where are these prematurely killed batteries? Also, when they do arrive, there's a home battery market ready and waiting to re-use them.

A high battery capacity has the advantage of allowing the daily routine to be far less challenging

Yes - a 200 mile battery might need to be charged less than half as much as a 100 mile battery - and fewer of those charges will need to be rapid too. There will be proportionately more destination charging (usually slow) and less in-journey charging (usually fast).

But joking apart, is there some sort of app that can put you in touch with a house offering something like this?

I think PlugShare allows you to put your own charger on (for many, many people to see!) if you're so inclined.

IanMSpencer

almillar wrote: »

Where are these prematurely killed batteries? Also, when they do arrive, there's a home battery market ready and waiting to re-use them.

My understanding it is basic battery science and well understood, hence the management of charging. A managed fast charge will do a very small amount of damage each time. With a managed charging system, I understand it will affect the life terms of the number of years it will be able to be used effectively, not a catastrophic failure.

The simple point is that if someone is depending on fast charging station availability to support a usage profile, they need to factor in that they could come unstuck if they over-do it, that the charge management system might decide that they are not allowed to charge at the rates they assumed when they considered it practical. It comes down to the fast charging being a useful enabler for occasional events, but not appropriate for a daily usage profile (which obviously is extreme).

If you have a Tesla and it's battery system is marked as degraded but is otherwise in perfect condition, what does that do to it's secondhand value?

Gloomendoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Perhaps we should start again

Indeed. I'll point you back to the post that I was originally responding too. Specifically the part in bold...

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Not just them. I read an article the other day, a major spark plug manufacture was branching out into wholly different fields, using its expertise in ceramic technology for new purposes, because they could forsee that in about ten years time that business was going to massively decline.

Who else? Companies that make gearboxes? Toast.

Note the word "companies", not "industries". I used ZF as an example of a company, a manufacturer of traditional gearboxes, that is unlikely to be "toast" because they have embraced the EV revolution and diversified into integrated electric powertrain systems.