Electric cars

AnotherJoe

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

... Yet there have been PHEV cars with PV assistance for a number of years - Mrs Z had the option on her's but at the time we saw it as being too expensive for the additional benefits ...

As it could possibly double the daily EV range in the right conditions (from approx 15 to 30 miles) and increase efficiency whenever the sky is bright, if/when the price is right it effectively becomes a 'no brainer' so expect to see them as standard fit on many EVs in the future

HTH
Z

I don't beleive that is so. One model of older Prius had a diminutive PV panel which trickle fed the battery. Certainly nothing currently on sale provides anywhere near teh 10miles/day sort of range you mention.
Even if you coudl do 10 miles range that's an electricity cost of about 50p at most you are saving. When the option cost is thousands to add that amount of PV
Even if you could add 10 miles a day range then all you are doing is lowering the number of charges you'd need from say 1 a month to 1 a week, not eliminating them
The economics, as you've pointed out in your wife's case, don't work.and they probabiy never will do.in any case they won't for at least ten years.
If you drive less than ten miles a day, use taxis. It will be far cheape
That Lightyear car is one hundred and twenty thousand US. And supposedly the buyers are spending that to save 50c a day on electricity. That sort of economics is why only people who haven't run the numbers think that PV ona car is a good idea. If PV was 10% the cost that ut is now, it might work economically but it still will only ever add 10-15 miles or so absolute max since there's a hard limit to the efficiency of PV.

The bottom line is, if you think PV on cars is a good idea, you haven't run the maths and realised it's a superficial gimmick.

AdrianC

AnotherJoe wrote: »

I don't beleive that is so. One model of older Prius had a diminutive PV panel which trickle fed the battery.

The Prius did start off with a solar panel to feed the climate, yes (nothing new there - Audi were doing similar a decade or more ago), but they have gone for solar-into-traction more recently.

https://electrek.co/2016/06/20/toyota-prius-plug-prime-solar-panel/

Toyota themselves say it "increases efficiency" by 10%... whatever they mean by that. 10% range? On a plug-in hybrid with 22 mile range, 8.8kWh battery (so at 15p/kWh, about £1.30ish)

I think the most likely verdict on it can be summed up simply - if it was any good, it'd be on all EVs. But even St Elon says "Nah - gimmick".

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Link?
The LiIons were the first that came up, so - yes - they may very well not be the most competitive.

Actually, I deliberately didn't provide a link just to see how little knowledge you have, and how far you will run with your latest false battery claims - remember your not understanding the difference between Ah's and kWh's, or your claim that EV's all used the same battery chemistry and cell type? Now you've shown a lack of knowledge on DoD and life cycles when jumping to a cost conclusion.

Also, I find that every link I provide you challenge (and fail) so it only upsets you more, and sends us all down more rabbit holes.

However I'll give you a clue - the posters on here who also comment on or read the domestic battery thread I started two years ago to discuss batts, will instantly recognise the price and size, or will at least be (correctly) suspicious that they know the batts I'm talking about. I'd also point out that whilst LA batts are very mature, Li-ion batts are not, and prices are still falling - $100/kWh soon for automotive batts perhaps, maybe $50 by 2025?

I'm happy that I know what I'm talking about, but if you'd prefer to stick with your original (expensive LI-ion) price, then that's fine, so £1,400 and 28kg v's £5,040 and 69kg.

Do you really want to keep going on your latest garbage spreading exercise? Or can we simply conclude, yet again, that you haven't got a clue?

zeupater

AnotherJoe wrote: »

I don't beleive that is so. One model of older Prius had a diminutive PV panel which trickle fed the battery. Certainly nothing currently on sale provides anywhere near teh 10miles/day sort of range you mention.
Even if you coudl do 10 miles range that's an electricity cost of about 50p at most you are saving. When the option cost is thousands to add that amount of PV
Even if you could add 10 miles a day range then all you are doing is lowering the number of charges you'd need from say 1 a month to 1 a week, not eliminating them
The economics, as you've pointed out in your wife's case, don't work.and they probabiy never will do.in any case they won't for at least ten years.
If you drive less than ten miles a day, use taxis. It will be far cheape
That Lightyear car is one hundred and twenty thousand US. And supposedly the buyers are spending that to save 50c a day on electricity. That sort of economics is why only people who haven't run the numbers think that PV ona car is a good idea. If PV was 10% the cost that ut is now, it might work economically but it still will only ever add 10-15 miles or so absolute max since there's a hard limit to the efficiency of PV.

The bottom line is, if you think PV on cars is a good idea, you haven't run the maths and realised it's a superficial gimmick.

Hi

Good here isn't it .... You write a post effectively saying that you've done the maths & at the current price the option isn't viable but will be when it becomes mainstream ... just to get a reply as irrelevant as the one above!

Anyway, why use never and 10years in the same sentence? ... it's eminently possible to build the PV element into existing moon roof apertures and deliver around 300-500W in full sunshine using current technology which at over 4miles/kWh would suggest that 10 miles of range extension is possible from utilising the roof space on a car (in good conditions) then why wouldn't it be done?. As for cost, if the option became mainstream then the likely on-cost over a moon roof would almost be negligible - £50 to £100 on a £20k to £30k vehicle price tag ..... time to get real ladies & gents, when EVs become mainstream the option for a solar roofline to increase efficiency will also - the marketing departments will almost certainly ensure it!


HTH
Z

Martyn1981

AnotherJoe wrote: »

[That sort of economics is why only people who haven't run the numbers think that PV ona car is a good idea. If PV was 10% the cost that ut is now, it might work economically but it still will only ever add 10-15 miles or so absolute max since there's a hard limit to the efficiency of PV.

Hey Z, turns out you and I don't understand PV, economics, and the economics of PV ..... who'd have thunk. Still, we had a good run, someone was bound to catch us out eventually. :rotfl:

Do you remember about 7yrs ago when the nuclear fan was knocking PV and I 'suggested' his numbers were out by a factor of 1,000. He told me to put up or shut up, so I did, and he said my numbers were wrong, and you did the maths, and he told you you're numbers were wrong too, then he showed his maths, and you had to point out he'd confused MWh's and GWh's (factor of a 1,000) ........ now we have the economics of PV, the economics of batts, and the false (spin) arguments that automotive PV and roof mounted PV are cross-shopped ........ I always consider the efficiency of my GCH boiler when deciding what efficiency of car I should buy. Don't you!

ElefantEd

Just seen a press release from Ecotricity/Dale Vince:

Newsflash - We’ve just installed the first of a new generation of pumps on the Electric Highway.

The EH as a whole has a 95% availability (which means it’s pretty reliable), but we reckon replacing these 30 will take us closer to 99% (super reliable).
We’re also planning HPC (High Powered Charging) for 2019 - the first wave of 20 sites are being scoped out now, grid is always the biggest issue. HPC is the new state of the art in fast charging, running at up to 350kW.
The cars won’t be on the road next year that can use that, though we should see some that can use up to 150kW.
But 350kW is coming, in pumps and in cars - giving an estimated 100 mile top up in around 5 minutes - that’s a proper splash and dash….
There’s a shed load of new models coming, prices are coming down, ranges are going up - emissions issues are not going away (expect more clean air zones next year) and several manufacturers now have called an end date to petrol and diesel cars (they’re going to stop selling them). VW Group were the most recent last week. The transition is truly under way.

The most interesting bit is the claim about being able to recharge 100 miles worth of range in 5 mins; this brings recharging times down to more or less fossil fuel times. Of course you'd need a car capable of taking a high power charge.

AdrianC

ElefantEd wrote: »

The most interesting bit is the claim about being able to recharge 100 miles worth of range in 5 mins; this brings recharging times down to more or less fossil fuel times.

Not quite - a not-unusual 500 mile IC range would be 25 minutes.

But it's certainly getting closer.

Martyn1981

I watched Fully Charged's review of the VW ID yesterday. Well, not a true review as it's just a pre-production test vehicle, but very impressive. And other sites were also praising the package so far.

Fingers crossed for another competitive BEV (around 2020) as the market expands. Here's a CT article on it:

Volkswagen ID — New Specs, Range, & Charging Compared To Other 2020 EVs

NigeWick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Fingers crossed for another competitive BEV

I'll be happy with my 64kWh Hyundai Kona when I get it. They're still quoting August 28th but I'm hoping their doubling of production will bring it to, May?

ChrisK....._3

Im not convinced that allllllll elctric cars will be main stream in the next 20 years so I have hybrid which is what I will be buying for the next 20 years