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Are degrees in the UK value for money?
Comments
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Just for the record, the BMA is a doctors' trade union. It's leadership is a left wing group with a wish to overthrow the Tory government
To practice medicine in the UK, one needs to register with the GMC.
Even more reason to deal with any restrictive practices!
I have no problem with trade unions lobbying for their members, but some like the BMA and NUT pretend to be professional bodies as well. So membership is tax free for example.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
The problem here in the UK is that the attitude of the youngsters to choose the subject to read at the university. Many are doing it because it is fun easy to get. How many students here are fancy to study history, literature, sport management, creative writing, etc. It has been proven historically that unless you belong to a very lucky one, get relatives, parent who could help you on the job ladder the chance is that you will be working in the job which do not need degree at all.
Compare it to the subject such as Medicine, Dentistry, Engineering, Science, Math, etc.
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When I went to university four decades ago, I recall choosing a mathematical science degree because it was more difficult. How times have changed!Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
I take your point that if the courses are not accredited then students will (and indeed should) go elsewhere. But if there are no shortages of places on accredited courses and the standards are being maintained then there is not a problem.
I do not know if chartered surveyors are in short supply or not, but if they are, then I do not believe that the Institution should be allowed to do things that limit numbers of places as it is suggested the BMA are doing for doctors. Failing to accredit, or withdraw accreditation of a compliant course is surely not in the public interest?
Professional bodies are not a law unto themselves, they exist though the granting of a Royal Charter. A Chartered institution is a legal entity which exists on the authority of the Queen and is regulated by the Privy Council. Legally they must act in the public interest. It follows that if they do not act in the public interest the Privy Council has a duty to amend their Charters.
They are acting in the public interests by maintaining standards! You have got the wrong end of the stick, standards were NOT being maintained and that is why they withdrew their accreditation.
They are not limiting places at universities, the places remain, but they are less attractive to students without the accreditation.Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one birdThe only time Chuck Norris was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistakeChuck Norris puts the "laughter" in "manslaughter".I've started running again, after several injuries had forced me to stop0 -
Bob, I am sure if new training places were created then there would be more students. As I said before, my suspicion is that it does not happen because there is no funding for it.The word "dilemma" comes from Greek where "di" means two and "lemma" means premise. Refers usually to difficult choice between two undesirable options.
Often people seem to use this word mistakenly where "quandary" would fit better.0 -
An anecdote. As anonymous as possible.
Speaking yesterday to a non EU European person.
They have two children both studying in medicine paying top dollars as classed as overseas students.
One in England the other one Poland.
Early days but both unlikely to practice in the Country of their degree but who is to know.
Pick the bones out of that.There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.0 -
To be blunt they could let a lot more candidates in without reducing the performance of the sector.
Alternatively you could do what they apparently do in Italy and let everybody who wants to be there into medical school. And then you have the fiercest first year in the world to scare off the armies of the uncommitted and unsuitable.
Exactly the practice for many Universities and degrees in France, Germany, Belgium, luxembourg, Austria and Switzerland.
If you have your BAC and have +/- €500 and can afford the food and lodging you get in. The first year thins the weak hearted out.There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.0 -
A bit off topic - there is a phenomenon I can not understand. Medics and dentists are demoralised, looking how to escape country, NHS, profession. Earnings decreasing. Yet there is still stampede of candidates wirh all As willing to spend the next 5- 7 years in unis at a total cost of at least £100 000. (Fees, lost earnings etc)The word "dilemma" comes from Greek where "di" means two and "lemma" means premise. Refers usually to difficult choice between two undesirable options.
Often people seem to use this word mistakenly where "quandary" would fit better.0 -
A bit off topic - there is a phenomenon I can not understand. Medics and dentists are demoralised, looking how to escape country, NHS, profession. Earnings decreasing. Yet there is still stampede of candidates wirh all As willing to spend the next 5- 7 years in unis at a total cost of at least £100 000. (Fees, lost earnings etc)
Have you ever seen doctors, dentists out of job, earning minimum wage ??? If so how many. Also few people (if any) you could find are not working might be due to family commitment, have parents or OH who are a wealthy businessman / woman, prolific breadwinners. Majority are earning above middle class income in their mid career.
At the same time, you just need to go to major supermarket chain, other store-chain, you might be able to find few people stacking items on the shelves, working on the tills have degrees.
This is what happen if the people are studying at uni for fun, what they like, not what they will potential make out of it.
It is becoming a public concern as many of them are studying using the taxpayer's money. If after studying they are still working in low paid job earning less than £21k, they will not pay back the loan they have taken even a penny.0 -
It's probably best to ask, why are universities' costs any different from attending an independent boarding school for several years.
Because universities are not only doing teaching they are doing research to be in forefront on the subject, helping industries to compete to be an inventor, innovator.
Because they need library with huge collection, research facility to be in the forefront of the subject.
Because universities have a lot of students activities they will need to fund. Sport center, student center, various advisory services, etc.
Because at the university people are taught by highly qualified people, professors, top lawyers, highly qualified engineers. top accountants.
Unlike the boarding school teachers; At the university, university teachers have good opportunities to work on other jobs where they could earn similar or even more. on other industries. Think about Brian Cox, Steven Hawkins working for NASA, Airbus, BAE, Boeing, etc.
Certainly many of these people money are not the first thing. But do you ever believe a second that these very smart people will ever consider working at the universities if they are earning similar to boarding school teachers ?
One thing to consider the true cost of universities here in the UK is not much different to the true cost of other universities in developed countries. Look at US, AU, CA, IE are they different in a greater degree with those at the British Universities ??0 -
Because universities are not only doing teaching they are doing research to be in forefront on the subject, helping industries to compete to be an inventor, innovator,
Because universities have a lot of students activities they will need to fund. Sport center, student center, various advisory services, etc.
Because at the university people are taught by highly qualified people, professors, top lawyers, highly qualified engineers. top accountants.
Unlike the boarding school teachers; At the university, university teachers have good opportunities to work on other jobs where they could earn similar or even more. on other industries. Think about Brian Cox, Steven Hawkins working for NASA, Airbus, BAE, Boeing, etc.
Do you ever believe a second that these very smart people will ever consider working at the universities if they are earning similar to boarding school teachers ?
One thing to consider the true cost of universities here in the UK is not much different to the true cost of other universities in developed countries. Look at US, AU, CA, IE are they different in a greater degree with those at the British Universities ??
The research is usually funded by grants from charities, research councils and industry. This funding covers the infrastructure too. You work out how much you actually need to cover salaries, equipment and consumables, and the university adds on overheads."Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" - Confucius0
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