Are degrees in the UK value for money?

Cakeguts

SingleSue wrote: »

I think it is more about raising standards and getting the message across that going to university is not a 3 year party time doss, serious work is expected and not just when an assignment is due in.

Middle son's is more relaxed as you can miss some, eldest's was completely relaxed.

It is happening because they don't realise that a degree isn't going to offer them the opportunities they think it will. They think they have "made it" because they have got a university place and it is quite possible that their school told them that they would get more benefit from going to university to get a degree rather than doing an apprenticeship.

They think that all they have to do is to go to the university attend whatever they want to and then at the end they will have the degree and access to a really good job without them having to do any work.

They are thinking in terms of university being an experience rather than an opportunity to learn.

I think that the not very intelligent students think of university as an experience that allows them to get a good job. They don't realise that you don't get something for nothing.

The students who have gone to the top universities are there to work not have an experience.

Although this is hard to believe some students choose the university to go to based on the quality of the night life in the local town. It is obvious that anyone doing that is thinking of university as if it is theme park or something similar to that.

You go to the theme park do what you want to while you are there and you get a degree and then you leave and walk into a graduate level job. Most of the students leaving the non top universities must get a terrible shock when they find that they can't get the mythical graduate level job and they have to get something paying minimum wage because they aren't qualified for anything better.

Out of the hundred or so universities there are only about 30 where you are likely to get a graduate level job. All the others you run the risk of getting an entry level minimum wage job. How many schools do you think tell their students about this risk when they are telling them to go to university?

SingleSue

He is not at a low ranking university and they don't get told off, they just have to have a good reason not to attend and like your experience, will lose marks if one is not forthcoming (the thing my son fears most, he aims for perfection)....and he wants to get his money's worth!

SingleSue

Cakeguts wrote: »

It is happening because they don't realise that a degree isn't going to offer them the opportunities they think it will. They think they have "made it" because they have got a university place and it is quite possible that their school told them that they would get more benefit from going to university to get a degree rather than doing an apprenticeship.

They think that all they have to do is to go to the university attend whatever they want to and then at the end they will have the degree and access to a really good job without them having to do any work.

They are thinking in terms of university being an experience rather than an opportunity to learn.

I think that the not very intelligent students think of university as an experience that allows them to get a good job. They don't realise that you don't get something for nothing.

The students who have gone to the top universities are there to work not have an experience.

Although this is hard to believe some students choose the university to go to based on the quality of the night life in the local town. It is obvious that anyone doing that is thinking of university as if it is theme park or something similar to that.

You go to the theme park do what you want to while you are there and you get a degree and then you leave and walk into a graduate level job. Most of the students leaving the non top universities must get a terrible shock when they find that they can't get the mythical graduate level job and they have to get something paying minimum wage because they aren't qualified for anything better.

Out of the hundred or so universities there are only about 30 where you are likely to get a graduate level job. All the others you run the risk of getting an entry level minimum wage job. How many schools do you think tell their students about this risk when they are telling them to go to university?

Youngest most certainly hasn't gone to university for the experience, he dislikes people, socialising, partying etc (which by the by is a perfect fit for his future hopeful career). He is far happier with his books, his research and his projects.

He is also seemingly a fairly rare breed (according to some in our circle) in that he prefers theoretical work over practical work.

Gloomendoom

Cakeguts wrote: »

1984 is too late. The dumbing down of A levels and O levels had started by then. You need to look at papers in the 60s and 70s to get a better idea.

Your aunt may have done CSEs they were more like GCSEs but harder.

In that case, GCSEs must be very, very easy.

When I was at school in the 1970s CSEs were offered (at a cost) in addition to O levels to pupils who did badly in their mock O levels. I did two: English and maths. I was awarded Grade 1 in both and I wouldn't be surprised if I scored 100%. They were the easiest exams I have ever done. Two questions from the maths paper stuck in my memory:

Estimate the weight of this paper. A 50 grams, B 5 kilograms, C 50 kilograms, D 5 tonnes.

Estimate the height of a step on a flight of stairs: A 2 cm, B 20 cm, C 2 metres D Something ridiculous.

The O level equivalents were a different kettle of fish. I don't believe integral and differential calculus form part of the the current GCSE maths syllabus.

westernpromise

Gloomendoom wrote: »

The O level equivalents were a different kettle of fish. I don't believe integral and differential calculus form part of the the current GCSE maths syllabus.

I am pretty sure they never did. I did O Level Maths in '78 and AO Maths in '79 and calculus was introduced in the latter.

They are now part of A Level. Likewise my daughter, who is 15, is only now doing trigonometry towards GCSEs next year, and she was astounded to be shown old exercise books of mine that show I was doing this at 11. Things leading up to it, like logarithms, are no longer studied at all, I don't think. She would have no idea how to use a set of tables.

GunJack

westernpromise wrote: »

I am pretty sure they never did. I did O Level Maths in '78 and AO Maths in '79 and calculus was introduced in the latter.

They are now part of A Level. Likewise my daughter, who is 15, is only now doing trigonometry towards GCSEs next year, and she was astounded to be shown old exercise books of mine that show I was doing this at 11. Things leading up to it, like logarithms, are no longer studied at all, I don't think. She would have no idea how to use a set of tables.

This is my recollection of Maths in '83 and '84, did O-Level in 4th yr, and AO in 5th yr. We were the first year of O-Levels (in '84) that could use calculators in exams (Physics, Chemistry, etc.) Had to use Log Tables for Maths O-Level as we did it a year early.

Malthusian

SingleSue wrote: »

You'd not get away with that at middle and youngest's universities. At youngest's, lectures, supervisions and workshops are compulsory and if you miss one (or are late), they want a blooming good reason why. At middle son's uni, you may get away with missing the odd lecture but not the majority.

I went to a top Russell Group university and barely attended lectures in the final year. It was a waste of time - the notes were available online and all the lecturers did was read out the notes. Nobody cared.

It sounds like they really are turning into schools. University students are adults. They should be allowed to not turn up and fail.

Cakeguts

Malthusian wrote: »

I went to a top Russell Group university and barely attended lectures in the final year. It was a waste of time - the notes were available online and all the lecturers did was read out the notes. Nobody cared.

It sounds like they really are turning into schools. University students are adults. They should be allowed to not turn up and fail.

And people pay £9000 a year for this?? Why not just do the whole thing on line at home?

Lingua

Cakeguts wrote: »

And people pay £9000 a year for this?? Why not just do the whole thing on line at home?

Depends on the degree. Good luck doing a lab experiment at home.

For primarily theoretical degrees, there's a reason the Open University is popular for part-time study

Lingua

GreatApe

Lingua wrote: »

Depends on the degree. Good luck doing a lab experiment at home.

For primarily theoretical degrees, there's a reason the Open University is popular for part-time study

Lingua

You can do lots of lab work online

Lab work is not like learning to be a hairdresser or a dentist or learning to ride a bicycle all those need repeated practice to get the mind and motor skills together and to get your speed and precision up

Lab work is, do experiment get the results and data and draw a conclusion.