Are degrees in the UK value for money?

GwylimT

economic wrote: »

When i was in primary school i remember learning very simple commands like print and using simple operands such as "+" and "-" using BASIC. This was before KS3. The stuff you learn at KS3 using Python is not that much more then this, maybe including "if" statements as well. But what is the point you are making? That since children are taught it, that its easy to learn it yourself? That's like saying maths is taught at KS3 so anyone can learn maths, just dont bother with degrees. So can anyone just learn maths at degree level without doing the degree? You are sounding like a deluded fool.

Actually it depends on the degree but both skills and knowledge is gained generally. Are you saying doing a dentistry degree is all knowledge and no skill? So they don't do any practical exercises at all? Same with medicine? What about physics, and chemistry? I agree something like Women Studies is all knowledge (useless knowledge but knowledge nonetheless).

You haven't answered my question on who you would rate more highly?

If someone has 27k and wants to do a degree then that's up to them. I would see someone who uses that 27k in a more productive way (e.g. setting up a business) to be more of a "doer". But again I'm not sure the point you are making. Are you saying that someone with 27k to waste away on a degree is a doer simply because he has 27k to throw away? 27k is not a lot of money.

All of python is very basic, I would expect anyone capable of reading
to be able to use all aspects of python. I found it odd that you compared a very simple easy to use equipment to studying, studying requires actual challenge surely?

Numeracy is taught at ks3, applied mathematics however is not.

All degrees are knowledge based, you cannot teach skill, you can only aquire knowledge to develop a skill. My oldest for example is a doctor, he has the knowledge to perform hundreds of medical procedures, but like all doctors he only has the skill to carry out n procedures as a skill cannot be taught, but is developed through experience. Even simple minds are aware that one cannot be taught a skill.

If £27k isn't a lot of money, then why all the complaining about people studying degrees?

I used my degree to own four properties mortgage free at 36, to emigrate and to be able to retire very comfortably at 45. To have opened a business would have been a waste of £27k and not as financially rewarding.

Windofchange

GreatApe wrote: »

Mr Windy

Maybe if the system did not encourage and force marginal kids to get marginal degrees you could have had 5 years more earnings and no student debts and no need to get all those CC debts? What would you say if I offered to buy your marginal degree from you for £150,000 and could magical give you 5 years more work experience too?

And what about the marginal grad at age 25 if I offered them £150,000 (roughly lost income and lectures debts) for the marginal degrees what percentage of them would bite my hands off?

£150,000 is more than enough to buy an average terrace in most the country. It is their housing costs sorted for life. For a couple its a house sorted and a pension sorted.

You want to know why kids feel poor and seem to be buying homes later and starting life later. Do you need to look far to figure it out?

So now you've upped your offer from 30k to 32k to 60k and now 150k? Why not 500k so all the teenagers of the UK can get a nice pied-a-terre in Fulham? What if I offered to buy your TV for £50k? You'd bite my hand off right? What if I offered you 10 bitcoins 5 years ago for £100? What if this, what if that? Why don't you actually try constructing a debate around something tangible as opposed to things that are never going to happen? Regardless of whether your idea is a good one or not (the forum minus economic seem to think not), it is never going to happen - not unless you become prime minister anyway. So what is the point of trying to postulate what would have happened to me had you brought my degree back in the day and had me working a non-graduate job? How about the fact that in the 15 years that have passed, I would probably have earned about 2 - 300k less? Reckon I'd bite your hand off for that 150k even if you did have it? Ah, but you'd have got an apprenticeship, worked your way up, be earning mega bucks and have 5 buy to let properties I already hear you thinking. Or I could have been a drunk, or I could have gone travelling, or I could have died etc etc etc etc. This isn't something you can have any sort of meaningful debate around. It's all just guesswork and what if this, what if that.

And then you want to simplify the whole thing by saying that the reason kids are poorer nowadays is because they are all going to uni. Nothing at all to do with the economy at large of course, nope it's iPhones, Costa and university.

economic

GwylimT wrote: »

All of python is very basic, I would expect anyone capable of reading
to be able to use all aspects of python. I found it odd that you compared a very simple easy to use equipment to studying, studying requires actual challenge surely?

Numeracy is taught at ks3, applied mathematics however is not.

All degrees are knowledge based, you cannot teach skill, you can only aquire knowledge to develop a skill. My oldest for example is a doctor, he has the knowledge to perform hundreds of medical procedures, but like all doctors he only has the skill to carry out n procedures as a skill cannot be taught, but is developed through experience. Even simple minds are aware that one cannot be taught a skill.

If £27k isn't a lot of money, then why all the complaining about people studying degrees?

I used my degree to own four properties mortgage free at 36, to emigrate and to be able to retire very comfortably at 45. To have opened a business would have been a waste of £27k and not as financially rewarding.

If all of python is very basic then why do i see jobs asking for Python developers and are willing to pay them £800+ a day in banking? If it was so easy then why are there not more people learning Python (due to the money) and therefore creating an increase in supply of Python developers so that banks can offer less money for the same skill? Use your statement on "applied maths" as a clue to the answer to this.

Well sure you get better at a skill by doing. But to gain that skill initially you would practice on dead people (who kindly lent them their bodies for study). Thats what they do in medical school. It's not 100% classroom teaching. They do practicals you know and that's the start of acquiring the skills. Going to practice medicine is where you develop the skills much further.

As i have said so many times i am not complaining (i couldn't care less) about people spending their own money to study (although i am in the opinion that by far for most degrees they are wasting their time and money). What i do have an issue with is taxpayer funded degrees of most degrees.

What was your degree in and what was your occupation?

Yet again you did not answer my question on who you would rate more highly.

Also no disrespect to your child who studied medicine but medicine is not very intellectually challenging. It is quite straight forward compared to a maths degree (IMO). I was actually considering medicine but i realised the intellectual vigor was just not enough for me. I also did not like the idea of becoming a GP (very boring) and study for countless number of years to specialise.

economic

For those who think Python is very basic, here is a very basic Python script. I challenge anyone who thinks Python is basic to write out the pseudo code line by line for the below script and summarise what the script is doing (hint: the line "@classmethod" is crucial). The underscores before some of the lines are just indentations.

[FONT=&quot]class Pets:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]____name = "pet animals"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]____@classmethod[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]____def about(cls):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]________print("This class is about {}!".format(cls.name))[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]class Dogs(Pets):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]____name = "'man's best friends'"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]class Cats(Pets):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]____name = "cats"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]p = Pets()[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]p.about()[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]d = Dogs()[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d.about()[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]c = Cats()[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c.about()[/FONT]

Windofchange

economic wrote: »

Also no disrespect to your child who studied medicine but medicine is not very intellectually challenging. It is quite straight forward compared to a maths degree (IMO). I was actually considering medicine but i realised the intellectual vigor was just not enough for me. I also did not like the idea of becoming a GP (very boring) and study for countless number of years to specialise.

economic

Windofchange wrote: »

Yeh i know silly of me to say what i said for the average medic but i honestly would not feel intellectually challenged by Medicine. I guess im just smarter then the average medic

Andy_L

economic wrote: »

For those who think Python is very basic, here is a very basic Python script. I challenge anyone who thinks Python is basic to write out the pseudo code line by line for the below script and summarise what the script is doing (hint: the line "@classmethod" is crucial). The underscores before some of the lines are just indentations.

<snip undocumented code>

I can see what its trying to do, but I suspect there's some subtle error in the method that means it doesn't work so you can try and demonstrate how complex python is

Windofchange

economic wrote: »

Yeh i know silly of me to say what i said for the average medic but i honestly would not feel intellectually challenged by Medicine. I guess im just smarter then the average medic

I guess you just are, I'm sure nobody here will have any differing opinions. Hope somebody helps you with your python homework soon.

economic

Andy_L wrote: »

I can see what its trying to do, but I suspect there's Somme subtle error in the method that means it doesn't work so you can try and demonstrate how complex python is

What does Somme mean?

The script works for me fine. Not sure what error you seem to think there is?

GreatApe

Windofchange wrote: »

So now you've upped your offer from 30k to 32k to 60k and now 150k? Why not 500k so all the teenagers of the UK can get a nice pied-a-terre in Fulham? What if I offered to buy your TV for £50k? You'd bite my hand off right? What if I offered you 10 bitcoins 5 years ago for £100? What if this, what if that? Why don't you actually try constructing a debate around something tangible as opposed to things that are never going to happen? Regardless of whether your idea is a good one or not (the forum minus economic seem to think not), it is never going to happen - not unless you become prime minister anyway. So what is the point of trying to postulate what would have happened to me had you brought my degree back in the day and had me working a non-graduate job? How about the fact that in the 15 years that have passed, I would probably have earned about 2 - 300k less? Reckon I'd bite your hand off for that 150k even if you did have it? Ah, but you'd have got an apprenticeship, worked your way up, be earning mega bucks and have 5 buy to let properties I already hear you thinking. Or I could have been a drunk, or I could have gone travelling, or I could have died etc etc etc etc. This isn't something you can have any sort of meaningful debate around. It's all just guesswork and what if this, what if that.

And then you want to simplify the whole thing by saying that the reason kids are poorer nowadays is because they are all going to uni. Nothing at all to do with the economy at large of course, nope it's iPhones, Costa and university.

If your degree was so fantastic for you why are you still in credit card debts in your late 30s?

And the kids of today have to pay £9k tuition a year unlike you who got it for £1k a year. Your twin graduating now might be in your shoes at age late 30s only they would have the credit card debts and another £60k in student debts to pay down

If the system was that the marginal kids left school and got a job at age 16 they would probably be homeowners at age 26 and have their life in order by 30 with a kid or two. Where are you so highly educated in your late 30s?

Your position is so stupid university is a good irrespective of the time and cost. I'm guessing you are one of those eternal children. In your late 30s still going about life like you are in your late teens.