Are degrees in the UK value for money?

michaels

The BBC has a piece linked to the increase in maximum fees to £9,250, their take is on the repayment model but entirely misses the point that it is effectively now a graduate tax.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38651059

However this got me wondering whether the proposed fees are actually reasonable compared to the cost of providing the course.

I believe that secondary education - say A levels - is done in the state sector for about 5k per pupil per year.

So then I wondered (for a humanities subject) how much it costs to teach a degree course. For example lectures often have many more students in them with one lecturer than the typical A level class - thus the 'instruction' bit of the teaching is cheaper per head.

However of course there are also smaller 'tutorial' type lessons and then marking of course work and exams. However it seems to me that for courses without major requirements for lab work the cost per pupil of a degree should be about the same as an A level course - ie a lot cheaper than the proposed £9250 annual fee.

Now perhaps universities are cross-subsidising more expensive subjects such as sciences and medicine but if so is this reasonable - perhaps a uni could only offer cheap to teach courses and significantly undercut others that do the cross-subsidy?

Does anyone know why uni courses in general cost much more than A levels?

zagubov

I've seen figures bandied about that suggest the average cost of a degree is about £12k per year. I presume humanities degrees cost less and I gather medicine much much more.

I don't believe that the OU cost that much, or that the polys cost as much, considering what they delivered, but the opportunity to expand the HE sector by distance learning is a missed one.

There's many reasons for costs. First, unlike schools when you're picking uni you've got about a hundred to pick from, all over the country, so facilities need to be first-rate as they're competing for students.
They need to be central, as universities rarely use cheaper suburban land. They tend to need massively more contiguous land to avoid the students criss-cossing town for half the day (and that need so serve student populations maybe five or more times the size of a really big school).
There have to be recreational facilities to attract students.
Student accommodation is probably an issue that schools don't share (think of unis more like boarding schools and it's a better comparison) and the staff: student ratio has to be high or potential students will be put off.
Staff need to be highly qualified to degree and beyond so you can't save money by hiring newly graduates.

It's probably best to ask, why are universities' costs any different from attending an independent boarding school for several years.

westernpromise

All the so called graduate tax is restore tax levels to the same base rate as I paid 30 years ago. Of course back then everyone paid it too graduate or not.

economic

westernpromise wrote: »

All the so called graduate tax is restore tax levels to the same base rate as I paid 30 years ago. Of course back then everyone paid it too graduate or not.

I paid £1k a year for my uni course. Landed a job at an investment bank. I felt I had a great return on my investment given what I got paid over the years.

michaels

zagubov wrote: »

I've seen figures bandied about that suggest the average cost of a degree is about £12k per year. I presume humanities degrees cost less and I gather medicine much much more.

I don't believe that the OU cost that much, or that the polys cost as much, considering what they delivered, but the opportunity to expand the HE sector by distance learning is a missed one.

There's many reasons for costs. First, unlike schools when you're picking uni you've got about a hundred to pick from, all over the country, so facilities need to be first-rate as they're competing for students.
They need to be central, as universities rarely use cheaper suburban land. They tend to need massively more contiguous land to avoid the students criss-cossing town for half the day (and that need so serve student populations maybe five or more times the size of a really big school).
There have to be recreational facilities to attract students.
Student accommodation is probably an issue that schools don't share (think of unis more like boarding schools and it's a better comparison) and the staff: student ratio has to be high or potential students will be put off.
Staff need to be highly qualified to degree and beyond so you can't save money by hiring newly graduates.

It's probably best to ask, why are universities' costs any different from attending an independent boarding school for several years.

Thanks

So we seem to have (at least) 4 issues:
1) Cross subsidy of different courses
2) The cost of providing other services that are part of university life but not part of the course (I am excluding accommodation on the grounds this is charged separately)
3) Although teaching hours per pupil are not higher than at school, they require higher calibre and thus more expensive teachers (although I know PHD students also teach)
3) Unis fearing that charging differential or lower fees might be taken to reflect that the course is of lower value

Of course given the funding model it appears that even if a uni charged only 75% as much the majority of students would end up paying exactly the same as they never pay back the full cost....I know we don't recognise economics as a proper discipline on this board but this certainly smells of 'market failure' to me with the cost of a course reflectign neither its value to the graduate nor the cost of provision....

silvercar

In today's job market, with half of young people having a degree, I would want my offspring to be starting off their careers with degrees in their pockets.

I have seen people lose out on opportunities to progress their careers just because they didn't have the qualification, even though they had the ability and experience to do the work.

So whether the degree itself offers value for money, I encouraged my children to study. I'm looking not so much at the cost of delivering the degree vs the amount charged, but the potential gain by having the degree.

marlot

The future is the new apprenticeship standards. They now go to level 4 (HND) and degree level.

I'm currently training 18 young people on level 4 apprenticeships - many of whom had multiple university offers, but preferred the apprenticeship route.

The degree level apprenticeships are particularly attractive - but my organisation isn't really big enough/yet ready to offer them.

marlot

As this is a money saving site, can I point out:

If you're later in life, missed out on a degree and not expecting to earn huge money in retirement, go for one. A friend is doing so, and she'll never have much (if anything) to pay back

If you move to Scotland for two years (?) before doing your degree, there are different rules.

Jackieboy

zagubov wrote: »

I've seen figures bandied about that suggest the average cost of a degree is about £12k per year. I presume humanities degrees cost less and I gather medicine much much more.

I don't believe that the OU cost that much, or that the polys cost as much, considering what they delivered, but the opportunity to expand the HE sector by distance learning is a missed one.

There's many reasons for costs. First, unlike schools when you're picking uni you've got about a hundred to pick from, all over the country, so facilities need to be first-rate as they're competing for students.
They need to be central, as universities rarely use cheaper suburban land. They tend to need massively more contiguous land to avoid the students criss-cossing town for half the day (and that need so serve student populations maybe five or more times the size of a really big school).
There have to be recreational facilities to attract students.
Student accommodation is probably an issue that schools don't share (think of unis more like boarding schools and it's a better comparison) and the staff: student ratio has to be high or potential students will be put off.
Staff need to be highly qualified to degree and beyond so you can't save money by hiring newly graduates.

It's probably best to ask, why are universities' costs any different from attending an independent boarding school for several years.

And even independent schools don't have the cost of funding a good academic library and all the other resource costs.

chucknorris

There are a number of couple of decent ways to reduce the cost:

1. Do a less expensive HND/HNC (for appropriate subjects) and start the degree in the second year.
2. Study part time and work for an employer who pays your fees, there will probably be some sort of claw back, but still a cheaper route. Approximately 60% of our students are part time.

Sapphire

Depends what degrees, I suppose. I do think too many people have been getting degrees in 'media studies', 'arts' subjects and the like, which don't then lead to jobs.

For some of them perhaps the new 'technical' colleges Teresa May wants to set up in various parts of the country would have been better options. I do feel that a lot of people went to 'uni' expecting to get a highly paid job immediately afterwards, which is not realistic.

Bliar should never have got rid of the technical colleges. For many jobs, apprenticeships or learning on the job are a far better idea. People who took these options in the past now say it stood them in good stead for the rest of their working lives.

I do think some jobs do need degrees, though, e.g. in science, medicine and various academic roles.

Perhaps there should be a degree in common sense, too? :cool: