Help for a person who doesn't want it

Just_This_-Once

I have a close member of my family who is displaying extremely paranoid behaviour .I am concerned that she may have some form of schizophrenia.
My request for help is .

How do you get a person who is convinced they are sane to go and seek help?

She is middle aged ,has no link to a local GP .She has split up from her husband .Believing that he to is involved in trying to control her life by videoing ,recording and conspiring to undermine her .Even the mention of seeking help is used by her as more evidence of a huge conspiracy.
With hind sight I see there is a pattern of behaviour that has gone on for a very long time ,that was not so extreme or taken as a one off did not cause concern .
I know this is a bit vague .I am concerned that if she or someone who is familiar with my family may well know who I am talking about .
I also am trying to sort this out in my own mind .
Any advice on the next move ,especially of people who have experience of something like this would be a great help .
I have visited the MIND Web site and although helpfull doesn't seem to help answer this particular question.
She has moved back into our mothers house and although i am concerned about her becoming violent ...She gets very angry and accuses people around her of being complicit in things she sees as unfair.
I also worry that she may well decide that maybe taking her own life is a reasonable (for her state of mind ) response .
I have ,during a very heated hour long discussion ,even told her she is Schizophrenic .This was definately not a light-bulb momment.
The good news is that for the last 2 mornings .She has opened the bedroom curtains .She remains in this room except for the basic needs .
Any advice or input would be much apreciated.

pboae

Whilst paranoia can be a symptom of schizophrenia, there are many many disorders which can have a paranoid component. It is also very common, with estimates that around 1/3rd of the population suffer from it to some degree, at some point in their lives.

Having said that, getting help in this situation will not be an easy task. I'd suggest you contact Mind http://www.mind.org.uk/About+Mind/Mindinfoline/#Getting_in_contact and ask them for advice.

Also, while she is living with your Mother, she could see your mother's GP as a visiting patient. So you could go and speak to one of the Dr's there and see if they can help. Unfortunately they may not be willing to speak to you about it. Although if you have genuine reason to believe that she might try and harm herself, then they could consider sectioning her, although this will always be a very last resort (as it should be).

Just_This_-Once

pboae wrote: »

Also, while she is living with your Mother, she could see your mother's GP as a visiting patient. So you could go and speak to one of the Dr's there and see if they can help. Unfortunately they may not be willing to speak to you about it. Although if you have genuine reason to believe that she might try and harm herself, then they could consider sectioning her, although this will always be a very last resort (as it should be).

The main problem is That although she is extremely unhappy .She does not think that the way she is bahaving is in any way odd (for what she believes) .She will not go and seek any help .That was what i was asking .Does anyone know how you can pursaude a person to go and talk to someone ?
I don't supose she would be sectioned .Her behaviour although extremely disturbing for people close to her.Would not be classed as anti-social .
My advice before she left her husband was for him to file for a divorce on the grounds of some kind of mental illness . This may ,I felt, have brought it out into the open .
.If you could see the state she is in compared to how she has been ,you would understand why I would propose her husband threatening her with a divorce.

My mother has been to see her GP who has said he will see her if she wants ,but has no way of forcing her to see him.

LondonDiva

If she is still registered with her GP & you know who they are, best thing to do is to write up the information and provide your details. They may or may not act on it, but will log it in her records (she will be unlikely to be given access to your letter as the info is provided in confidence).

If she is no longer with her GP, she can register as a temporary patient with her mother's GP for up to 90 days.

Your mother could always ask her GP / practice manager for information and advice too, especially about how your relative could access the local mental health support on a self referral basis.

A good start for that would be to contact your local mental health or PCT PALS... look them up on www.nhs.uk or give more info about your nearest council / region and I can post the details for you.

good luck

Diva

pboae

If your mother's doctor has already agreed to see her, there would be no point you going to see them again. But they are right when they say she would have to go of her own accord.

It may be possible to get her there under false pretences, i.e. if her husband does cite mental illness in a diovorce petition, then you may be able to get her there to prove she is sane. It would have to be someone else who did it though, as you have already told her you think she is unwell.

The difficulty here is that you cannot force or coax someone to have insight where there is none.

Regarding being sectioned though (if it comes to that) it isn't about anti-social behaviour, it is to do with being a danger to herself or others. If you really think she is likely to attempt suicide, you can get her help on those grounds.

cobbingstones

Hi

I'm sorry to hear of your situation. Knowing someone is suffering from a mental health problem isn't easy. May I suggest if you can't speak to the GP, to contact your local CMHT (Community Mental Health Team). They would be willing to listen and to advise. You could ask at any GP's for the number. You would be best asking to speak to the person on duty.

HTH

MM

RadoJo

'My advice before she left her husband was for him to file for a divorce on the grounds of some kind of mental illness . This may ,I felt, have brought it out into the open .
.If you could see the state she is in compared to how she has been ,you would understand why I would propose her husband threatening her with a divorce.'

To be honest, if you have encouraged her husband to file for divorce on the grounds of a mental health disorder which you have apparently diagnosed yourself, it may not just be paranoia on her part.

It does seem clear to me that you are acting in the best interests of this person (your sister?) but this is just my take on what you have written, and if she is already feeling as though she doesn't know who she can trust, this may well be the interpretation she has of your actions. I would suggest that you stop trying to force her to do what you think is best, and maybe ask what she wants or whether she has any idea about where she would like to go from this point? As you have realised, making someone accept help when they don't want to is nigh on impossible, but instead of going in all guns blazing telling her she is schizophrenic, you might have to try something more relaxed, informal and less terrifying.

gwen80

Hi

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I've dealt with a similar problem myself affecting a close member of my family, on the two occasions she has been ill and I know how difficult it is.

I agree with RadoJo though. You cannot force someone to admit they have a problem. If you try to force it, they will resist and you will lose their trust. In this situation, trust is absolutely vital. Its important that your family member has somebody they trust and will put her interests first (you or your mother I imagine). You need then to gently broach the subject. Maybe ask her what is happening (remember to her it is very real and for her to trust you, she must know that you believe her - I know this is difficult to do) and why she thinks it is happening. Don't argue with her or try to make her see it isn't real (even when you're so frustrated!), it is very real to her and thats what matters. Call up the doctor and ask if she can see a doctor as a visitor. She should be able to do that, my family member visited my doctors, 50 miles away from her own, while she was ill, as she was staying with me. Then ask her if she would be willing to talk to a doctor about it as they may be able to help. Ask if she would like someone to go with her and go along if you can. Personally, I would avoiding sectioning if at all possible. Although, I've never experienced it, I've heard of terrible experiences on psychiatric wards and I would never put someone through that if I could possibly avoid it. Also, if it was me, I would have a hard time dealing with the fact that I was sectioned by a member of my family. This is just my opinion though and you will do what you think is best. I've just found that (an incredible amount of!) patience, understanding and acceptance helps to establish trust and gently persuade someone to seek medical treatment in this kind of situation.

I would be careful who you trust with this information aswell. Not because there is anything to be ashamed of in having a mental illness (I believe we all have difficult times in life and it could happen to anybody), but because there is still a lot of stigma associated with it. I kept my family members illness from a lot of people because I didn't know how they would react and I didn't want my family member or myself to be judged on her illness. Instead I told a small circle of close, trusted friends and family members. Once better, I also wanted my family member to return to normal life as quickly as possible without people whispering and gossiping about her. Also, sadly, there are people out there that will use this sort of information about a person to take advantage. Of course, its up to you at the end of the day, but just something to bear in mind.

I know that dealing with this kind of thing is very stressful, but its also important to try to put yourself in their shoes. In my family members case, she genuinely believed people were out to get her and she was getting electric shocks from the tv and the light (when she was sat on the sofa!). To live, believing that she was being constantly monitored and watched and believing they were going to kill her was incredibly stressful for her too. I also found that sometimes, in her more vulnerable moments, she wasn't quite as adamant about what she believed was happening to her. I think that deep down, its very confusing for them too and they don't know what to believe, don't understand what is happening to them and are very frightened.

Anyway, I hope that maybe some of what I've wrote might help. I know how hard this kind of thing is to deal with, as Toots says it can be harder in many ways than any physical illness.

Best wishes,
Gwenx

gwen80

Hi

I've just read some of the other posts a bit more carefully. I would be careful about getting her to the doctors under false pretences as she may feel duped. She would then likely think that you (or whoever had taken her) was also involved in the things that she believes are happening. What if she decided to leave your mothers? You may have no way of getting help to her then. It may be better to be able to keep a close eye on her, build the trust and gently persuade her to 'talk to' (not see) a doctor. If she says why, just say they might be able to help.

I've just read that paragraph back and I'm not saying don't do it, just be very careful. I'm not proud to say I did the same thing. I asked my family member to come to the doctors with me to talk to them. I then said that they would be able to tell the police what was happening if they thought they should know, but we should speak to the doctor first. Just be careful - you know your situation better than we do.

Also, madsmum suggested contacting the local CMHT. My family member used to have a nurse that visited her once a week and this really helped. It may be a way of getting her to talk to someone and getting you and your Mum some support.

Best wishes,
Gwenx

hellies

i work in a mental health nhs unit and the system is a very difficult 'loop' to get into, any patients must be referred by either a gp, social services or a consultant in another department. part of the problem you face is that if you manage to get her to the gp under false pretences then you are going to have problems getting her to see a doctor at the hospital as you have already lost her trust? I would stongly reccommending calling your local hospital mental health unit and asking for some advice, all trusts are different but I am sure they will be able to help you.

Just_This_-Once

Thanks for all the replies.
I have tried to keep things vague for my famillies anonymity.Maybe I was too vague.Sorry for that
About 5 years ago my sister left her career as a policewomen .Accusations line managers were conspiring to force her out and undermine her standing amongst her collegues...At this point I thought this was true.
She then sold her house with her husband and emigrated to Australia .Partly due to her feelings that the police were still trying to get at her .This time ,through her children.
The house made them quite a bit of money and they bought into a business in Australia .It came with staff already in place .Within a year the business was hemoraging cash and the satff were fired they were accused of conspiring together to undermine the company.
She has come back to UK twice .Last christmas with the kids .This was the first time we saw how extreme her behaviour had become .Accusations familly members were making pornographic videos of her children (cameras in bathrooms ).Even that I had allowed her children to be groomed on the internet.
This was when we found out she has slept on the living room floor for the last 3 years .Won't share a room with her husband.
She has been at my mothers for 16 weeks now.She did not phone to tell anyone she was coming over .
She ignores anyone who comes to the house family or not.
She was violently sick the other night .She has now told my mother this was the result of trying to take an overdose ,she said this was the second attempt since she arrived .( This conversation only happened because she needed information on cheap plane tickets)
She is also said she is planning on going back to Australia ,as soon as she can buy a ticket.
Her husband has made his choice and I understand he moved out of the apartment they shared soon after she left .None of my family has a forward adress.


That is all the information I feel I can give .

I have explained to my mother that her house is a sanctuary and if as some of my familly think ,she should be told to leave .Then I would give her a week before some scumbag is taking advantage of her .And in her present state she would give untill she dropped .
I am also aware that most people would prefer not to think that a person has lost control ,People like to think the best .It is a form of denial.
I forced the issue by mentioning the name of her illness Because some people were trying to accept this extreme and irrational behaviour as acceptable .
My concern is for my sister .And if it means she thinks i'm terrible .I will live with that ,if it helps or at least wakes people around to the fact she may well get a result the 3rd or 4th time she tries to take her life.

there you go thats how the dice have fallen .We are not a close familly .But this time I am aware that she has burned so many bridges with the people who should be looking out for her that It is my turn .
As I said in my first post any advice much apreciated .I would have got back earlier ..Router problems .Fixed now I hope