Horizon fine for overstay in Sainsbury's local

microstar

There is a Sainsbury's Local store about 1 mile from my house that I use almost every day (I usually call by in the morning to buy a sandwich and drink for lunch etc.).
Today I got an 'overstay' charge notice from Horizon. Stayed 45 minutes (I believe its 30 minutes free parking there). There was a NTD stuck to driver's window glass. I was already late for an important meeting so didn't have time to go back into the store to speak with manager etc - just looked at it this evening.

Basically, how accurate are the times that they put on the tickets?
Says I arrived 9.45am and ticket was issued at 10.30am. But I am sure I arrived about 10am ( call in same time most mornings).

This is my recollection of the timeline:
Pulled into car park about 10am - was taking a call on handsfree and continued to speak after parking up for about 15mins.
About 10.15 went into store and bought box of four donuts and a drink.
About 10.25am exited store and spotted owner of neighbouring shop in street (who I know) and had a chat with her for about 10 mins. Went back to car (still clutching donuts) and saw yellow envelope - by this time already late for client appointment so had to shoot off and deal with it later.

Called back into the store tonight and had a word with manager (who I recognise by sight) - but he said nothing he could do. I didn't take receipt for donuts (paid with loose change so no card transaction).

Where do the times on the ticket come from? Would there be a time-stamped photo and how is the time information derived? I am assuming it was a warden on foot. I recall looking at my watch as I drove out from home at 9.50am so sure would have arrived at the store after 9.45am !
If I am in the wrong I will pay up - but at the moment feeling very suspicious and frankly very wary of ever parking there again.

pogofish

Get stick-in to the Newbies Sticky at the top of this forum to see your range of options. What actually happened won't really mean much to Horizon but a properly constructed appeal will.

Redx

they can put what they like on the tickets, there are no regulations governing private parking charge notices (unlike council ones) and little of your "story" actually matters in these cases (legal arguments matter)

just follow the same procedures as this one https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5588931

EXCEPT appeal around day 26 as keeper (not as driver - thats a secret)

use the BLUE TEXT appeal template, no alterations , no dropping yourself "in it"

do not appeal this yet, read the NEWBIES sticky thread , it tells you what to do and why , so you have a few weeks to get to grips with these sc@mmers

but you could complain to Sainsburys (as an occupant of the vehicle) and get it cancelled - a landholder cancellation is always best - always !!

so as the manager fobbed tou off , go to their CEO at head office , in writing (or email or whatever , not by telephone - get a paper trail going)

so appeal as keeper on or just before day 26 , dont forget (not now)

if appealing by post , get a free certificate of posting from the P O counter (not recorded delivery)

microstar

Thank you very much for your replies.
I have read through the 'stickies'
The vehicle is actually a lease vehicle and so I will have to reveal myself to Horizon as the driver sooner rather than later (the lease company will charge me an admin fee for any PCN that they receive).
So short of appealing to Sainsbury's HQ what else can I do?
Presumably I can write to Horizon and challenge the times and ask for time-stamped photos - but where does the time info come from on a warden-operated camera - presumably not NTP time?

Redx

not true at all, if you had read the "stickies" you would know that your appeal goes in as LESSEE or as HIRER of the vehicle , so still as KEEPER of the vehicle (it could have been me driving it) - it still goes IN around day 26 , so maybe on day 25 , and definitely AFTER day 21

so you definitely do not reveal yourself as DRIVER , but as LESSEE/HIRER of the vehicle. Nowhere in that sticky thread does ot tell anyone to admit to being the driver (not unless there are extenuating circumstances for doing so - even most murderers plead "not guilty")

Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal to use where it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'. You are the keeper.

these hand held cameras are open to fraud and UKPC were documented and banned from the DVLA database for a while because of it about 15 months ago

timings are not going to help you here, although you seem obsessed by them , they are what they are on a digital camera and they can be changed or hacked as can any digital device (or digital voting system like the USA elections) - try taking a picture on your uk phone , then set it to mexican time and take another picture , now compare the digital info embedded in the pictures and see if they are maybe 6 hours apart ? (hint - EXIF data)

HORIZON wont give YOU any evidence at all , no matter how hard you ask for it , especially not any photos (or contracts or any other data) - they dont have to and will not do so (this private parking industry is unregulated)

yes complain to the head office

and use the blue text appeal or the one by ednabasher for hire vehicles instead , adapted for your own use but still as LESSEE

learn the words for what identifies you (lessee or hirer) , assume I was driving and you are picking up the c*** off the floor !

edna basher is the guru on these as he (or she) is involved with them on an almost daily basis

Half_way

what sainsburys was this?

microstar

I have done my best to understand the Stickies, however in my case there was a NTD stuck on the car. If I wait until Horizon write to my lease company then the lease company will hit me with an admin charge.
I note the following:
“ Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal to use where it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'. You are the keeper.
”

I don't want to get to the stage where the lease company are contacted as Registered Keeper from DVLA data.
Can I respond to the NTD by writing to Horizon around day 25 as the lessee but not admitting to being the driver?

Redx

yes, which is what I explained in my previous reply

use the edna basher letter around day 25 , post first class at the post office (if mailing it) and get a free certificate of posting from the COUNTER STAFF

do not send it recorded , only first class with proof of posting

and also tell the hire company not to deal with any NTK they receive as you are dealing with it as hirer/lessee/keeper

assume I was the driver and ignore the camera timings for now too , concentrate on what needs to be done , dont get caught up in the anger of the moment , sleep on it and keep reading until it becomes clearer

Coupon-mad

microstar wrote: »

I don't want to get to the stage where the lease company are contacted as Registered Keeper from DVLA data.

That will not happen if you appeal giving your name and address as lessee/hirer. You ARE also the keeper by virtue of the POFA definition. DO NOT say who was driving.

Can I respond to the NTD by writing to Horizon around day 25 as the lessee but not admitting to being the driver?

Yes, the sticky thread is up to date and this is the recommended appeal approach. It is that simple, you are the keeper, hook them in your direction and then win at POPLA.