Enduring Power of Attorney - Cheat the deadline??

Primrose

What's to stop anybody downloading an Enduring Power of Attorney document from the internet, saving the document on their computer and getting all the parties, (if they're still of sound mind) to sign the documents and date them before the October 1st deadline ?? Who would know if this was the case? It might certainly help to avoid the expensive fees and complications the Lasting Power of Attorney documentation is forecast to bring.

Biggles

Primrose wrote: »

What's to stop anybody downloading an Enduring Power of Attorney document from the internet, saving the document on their computer and getting all the parties, (if they're still of sound mind) to sign the documents and date them before the October 1st deadline ?? Who would know if this was the case? It might certainly help to avoid the expensive fees and complications the Lasting Power of Attorney documentation is forecast to bring.

If you mean signing them after 30 Sep but dating them earlier than that, then the answer is nothing whatsoever.

But it's a pretty dodgy strategy, as it only works if, out of a donor, two or three attorneys and maybe three or four witnesses - potentially six to ten people - none of them never fall out. If they do (and this could be at any time in the future, don't forget) and someone blows the whistle, the brown stuff hits the fan. Not only is the EPA invalid, but you have committed fraud. All of you.

If you think you might, even just faintly possibly, need an EPA (and, to be honest, any of us might - I've completed mine though I hope I'll never need it!), then it's free to download and complete before next Monday and you can tuck it away just in case you need it. And it's free, legal and enforceable.

RayWolfe

What's to stop anyone commiting fraud?
The law.

moneylover

For anyone who wants more detailed information at layman level on the new LPA Age Concern have an excellent information sheet on their website

http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/fs22.asp

The law isnt changing with regard to ordinary power of attorney which allows others to manage your affairs if you become physically incapacitated - however this is useless if you become mentally incapacitated.

Biggles

jackdoor wrote: »

What are you going on about? You only need one witness if you're also signing it yourself.

What I am 'going on about' is that it could well be that the donor and each attorney has a different witness (eg if they sign at different times and maybe in different places).

But the main point (getting back to the OP) is that there will be several people (three at the very least - donor, attorney, witness - the maximum is limitless) who may disagree at some time in the future, leaving your EPA invalid.

Biggles

sav4it wrote: »

Biggles, couldn't your argument work the other way too if a future fallout ie falsely blow the whistle in which case what would be the point in even going to the trouble in the first place?

I understand that it's just possible that a severe family falling-out could lead to all kinds of accusations. But one person's word would probably need to be backed up by some kind of evidence to hold water. My point was really that, by flouting the law in the way suggested, you were asking for trouble and may well get it.

If you really want to be absolutely safe, you could always get your solicitor to make a certified copy before 1 October, that would be evidence in the future that it had been validly made.

reggie

I just rang the Guardianship helpline regarding witnesses - the man I spoke to said that the witness should be the same for donor and attorneys. I queried it and asked whether it was not possible to have different witnesses for the attorneys and donors and he said No. It seems to conflict with everything I've read but I'm going to play safe.

Biggles

reggie wrote: »

I just rang the Guardianship helpline regarding witnesses - the man I spoke to said that the witness should be the same for donor and attorneys. I queried it and asked whether it was not possible to have different witnesses for the attorneys and donors and he said No. It seems to conflict with everything I've read but I'm going to play safe.

It not only conflicts with everything I've read but also contradicts various legal and advice websites, some of which go out of their way to specify that it need not be the same witness. There's no need for it to be, as the PGO themselves say the witness doesn't need to know what's in the form, s/he is merely saying s/he saw you sign it. You were just unlucky to get someone who spoke first instead of checking. I think if you ring back and speak to someone else you will get a different answer.

The only requirements (according to the Public Guardianship's site, forms and brochures) are that the attorney can't witness the donor's signature and neither the donor nor other attorneys can witness an attorney's signature. They also say it's best if the witness is not the donor's husband, wife or civil partner.

reggie

Thanks - to be honest, you confirmed what I suspected; he already had to check something else I'd queried. I suppose if they're being inundated with calls then extra people with not quite so much knowledge will be answering the phone.

Biggles

One thing I have to say now is this: the new forms are now available and - they're not too bad! So, if you're running out of time to complete an EPA, all may not be lost.

Well, I'll qualify that by saying that the form for a Property and Affairs Lasting Attorney is not too bad, anyway, I haven't yet been through the Personal Welfare one.

Yes, it's 26 pages, but much of the information is the same as given in the present EPA, though in a different, much more detailed format. The main difference seems to be 'certification' by someone independent who has known the donor personally and has talked to them about the LPA (not in the presence of the attorney(s)) to see that s/he understands what s/he is doing, so this is an extra safeguard against abuse.

As we know, it has be be registered before it can be used, for a fee of £150. But (IMHO) the new P&A LPA can be completed without the aid of a solicitor just as easily as the existing EPA. The PW LPA may well be a different matter.

What I will say is this: it will be far better to get the new form and complete it than to 'cheat the deadline' and spend years wondering whether you'll be found out!

All the new forms are here:-
http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/formsdocuments/forms.htm

Maybe there should be a new thread on LPAs or a 'sticky' or something, but I don't know about such things.