"Recent structural movements" when buying leasehold flat

katastrofa

My wife and I had an offer accepted on an upper floor leasehold flat in a Limehouse Cut canal-facing residential block (Andersens Wharf in Limehouse, E14) in East London. The lender (Coventry BS) refused to lend us money for this flat saying "The block appears to have suffered recent movement, significant cracking was noted at lower levels." (verbatim from their valuator's report). We went to have a look at the building ourselves today and indeed saw this:

s24.postimg.org/ri1hvpabp/IMG_8613.jpg
s29.postimg.org/nxfbayth3/IMG_8596.jpg
s29.postimg.org/mb1bezaav/IMG_8600.jpg

(had to chop off the leading bits to be able to post this, sorry)

It looks pretty scary to me. Should give up on the flat (:sad:) now, or is there hope that a structural survey would show this to be harmless (apparently in this area settlement movements are not uncommon) and we could try with another lender? What kind of survey is appropriate in such case?

Other details:
- the photos were taken today, after the period of freezing weather (but I doubt this could be caused by weather alone)
- there is a construction going on next to the building (on the same side of Limehouse Cut) and on the opposite side
- when I asked the guy on the construction site on the opposite side of Limehouse Cut, he said that there is a lot of settlement and they have to put 3m of brick foundations in the ground to give the building something to stand on

csgohan4

If there's a doubt, it's out


I guess see what the survey says, but they will likely put a caveat and say get a structural engineer

katastrofa

They don't want to show us the the survey (they paid for it, they own it - this is the argument).

I think they got the "recent" bit wrong, because we found a photo of this building from a 2013 sales ad where you can see the cracking already. But then again, I can't find any evidence of any properties having been sold in this flat after that year... doesn't smell good.

Doozergirl

Recent would include 2013, IMO, but I think it's ongoing.

I'll buy anything at the right price but I wouldn't buy that. If any other surveyor spots it, they will refuse to lend.

There is clear evidence that wall has been repointed in on more than on occasion. The whole of that area has been repointed once. Pointing would never look like that on a fresh new wall. It's really rough and the walls are smeared with mortar. Then it's been done again with a slightly different mix in the line under the windows.

The obvious diagonal appears to have been very recently repointed in yet another mix - and has opened up again. Not just recent, very recent I'd say. Evidence of something progressive and no evidence that it has stopped. Quite the opposite.

Interestingly, cracks tend to point towards their source. There's a lovely downpipe exactly where the big crack points to on the ground, another crack pointing to it at the top left window and... evidence of recent excavation. The pillar next to it is a bit far away but looks like someone pointed it with the back of a spoon. Rebuilt?

Looks like subsidence. I'd never accept that as settlement cracks. Why is settlement a 'feature' in the area? That doesn't sound right.

I really don't think it's worth it even if you could secure a mortgage. The building is tarnished and the whole leasehold thing makes anything expensive.

Lear48

Have you asked the vendor or agent for more information - they must know something.
The pictures show different mortars in the brickwork that suggest that several previous unsuccessful attempts have been made to patch it up.
Typically building society surveys when they are only for the purpose of establishing that there is sufficient security for their loan are done by building surveyors. In this case there is a suspected structural problem so the best advice would be from a Chartered Structural Engineer who has the relevant experience.
If the building is less than 30 years old it's unlikely that the foundations were not designed to cope with the potential subsidence risk. However, without a better idea of the building overall it is not sensible to speculate further. Also if the problem can be solved by for instance rebuilding that panel of the wall then you may be able to negotiate an appropriate price reduction.

HouseBuyer77

Doozergirl has this right. Signs of serious issues. Simply not worth in when dealing with a leasehold (big block to sort out, big expensive job, seems like the current management company would prefer to cover it up rather than do a decent fix too).

katastrofa

Thanks. We were going to buy a leasehold flat in the building, so it wouldn't be our job to fix the wall - we're worried about the risk of building collapsing (obviously!) and the possible difficulties with selling it later.

I took a photo of a strange (to me) device at the bottom of one of the sides of the building (near the "lovely downpipe"):
s29.postimg.org/l3bw6c0ev/IMG_8598.jpg
Could it be a sign of some effort to fix the problems causing the cracks?

I also saw that a brick got cracked near the ground:
s30.postimg.org/ys3u7dcc1/IMG_8606.jpg
and higher above the ground:
s30.postimg.org/j3sce86wx/IMG_8608.jpg
Again, I'm not an expert, but I presume that to crack bricks like that requires higher strain than to crack mortar?

Doozergirl

Do you know what that looks like? An utter mess.

I don't know what that is doing. It's a sort of gallows bracket but it's designed to hold something up. With the wood, it looks like it's hiding something or holding something against the wall. It cannot be a fix.

But the wall above! It looks like a five year old built it. What is that?!

Yes it takes good force to crack bricks - especially engineering ones! But it also takes considerable force to create those diagonal ones and those are cracks as bad as I've seen. There is so much crap superficial remedial work going on around there that you can't tell the true extent.

The vendor must surely know about this already.

nimbo

You wouldn't be directly responsible for fixing the issue. That cost would be shared among the leaseholders.

So whatever the bill is / number of flats. If the management company don't have a sinking fund it will need to be covered - personally I'd guess if the management had a sinking fund they'd have used it to fix the issues rather than polyfoller the holes.

Have you asked about maintainence costs and ground rent? I have a feeling there may be a big bill about to land on the owners doorstep...

resale value is already taking a hit - even if the flat you're looking to buy is on the other side of the building. Because what's stopping that spreading?

Those cracks are huge. And already refilled at least once.

AdrianC

katastrofa wrote: »

My wife and I had an offer accepted on an upper floor leasehold flat in a Limehouse Cut canal-facing residential block in East London. The lender (Coventry BS) refused to lend us money for this flat saying "The block appears to have suffered recent movement, significant cracking was noted at lower levels." (verbatim from their valuator's report). We went to have a look at the building ourselves today and indeed saw this:

Yep, that's definitely moving.

It looks pretty scary to me. Should give up on the flat (:sad:) now, or is there hope that a structural survey would show this to be harmless (apparently in this area settlement movements are not uncommon) and we could try with another lender? What kind of survey is appropriate in such case?

Other details:
- the photos were taken today, after the period of freezing weather (but I doubt this could be caused by weather alone)
- there is a construction going on next to the building (on the same side of Limehouse Cut) and on the opposite side
- when I asked the guy on the construction site on the opposite side of Limehouse Cut, he said that there is a lot of settlement and they have to put 3m of brick foundations in the ground to give the building something to stand on

It may be leasehold, meaning the actual work is somebody else's problem - but that somebody else is still going to ask the leaseholders for the money to do the work.

I hope it's very, VERY, VERY cheap.

csgohan4

run away like the plague