Employment Tribunal Advice Please

annandale

The offer to settle might well be their last one unless they do so on the morning of the hearing. Good luck with it.

Undervalued

Converse20 wrote: »

UPDATE- they've offered the £15k again today. I declined.

I also asked them for a document which basically ruins thier case.

They tried to submit a handbook that was from well after my dismissal and was completely different to the previous one. Almost to the point that it was written with my case in mind.

I couldn't actually prove that it was after my dismissal as it wasn't dated.

So yesterday I emailed them and asked for proof of when it was distributed to staff.

They provided me with proof (an email and sign off sheets) of it being produced well after (3 months) I was dismissed!!

Am I the only one that thinks that they are crazy for providing this?

Now I think two things could be possible here

The first is that they have a trick up thier sleeve. I'm getting thier skeleton argument on Thursday so I will know their angle in detail.

The second, could it be that they are not actually planning on defending, and will be looking to settle anyway? Or is this wishful thinking?

Please advise. Time is running out!

Sorry, but with the greatest respect you have had lots of good advice on here from some very experienced people but you have chosen to largely ignore it.

Ultimately it is your decision, nobody else's. You have chosen to go into this without proper legal advice and you have chosen to turn down a settlement offer of roughly 2.5 times the average tribunal award.

Now, you may be proved right and there is something about your case that makes it one of the small minority that attract a significant award. Time will tell.

Or, you may end up with nothing and your case be one of the few where costs are successfully claimed against you.

Without the full facts (and this is not the place) I don't think anybody can offer more than general advice. Keeping relevant facts back, like the tribunal being next week, doesn't exactly help either!

If you have genuinely been wronged by your employer, as far as employment law is concerned, then I hope you get just compensation. However, as I have said before, an ET is not the place to try and get your employer "punished" for other transgretions be they major or minor.

steampowered

To be fair to the Op, I don't think we know how the Op has calculated her schedule of loss, or what proportion of that schedule of loss the £15 represents. Which is perfectly understandable given the nature of an online forum.

I therefore feel that I do not have sufficient information to comment on whether £15k would be a reasonable settlement. Although as I think the Op is already aware £15k would, in extremely general terms, be quite a large award for someone with 2 years' service.

It isn't a surprise to me that the hearing is extremely soon - the Op told us that the bundle had already been prepared and that skeleton arguments were due, which indicated that the hearing was imminent.

I wish you the very best with the hearing Op, and please do let us know the outcome, win or lose.

steampowered

Converse20 wrote: »

The email that they sent me today stated that the book that they are relying on isn't relevant and therefore the statements given saying that they consulted the book are false. As the book didn't exist!

If the witness statements quote from a handbook that was not introduced until after your dismissal, or expressly refer to items that are in the new handbook but not the old handbook, then I would think that is good material for cross-examination of the witness.

If the witness statement is clear enough, it could lead to a potentially damaging line of questioning asking whether the witness statements were written by the HR person or by their employer, and asking whether the witness statement was a genuine reflection of what happened.

I personally would save this for cross-examination as it is not a fundamental part of your case, but it could undermine the credibility of the defendant's witness. Make sure that both handbooks are available to the Tribunal and the defendant's counsel at the hearing (ideally they would be in the bundle but I suppose it might be a bit late for that)

Mersey_2

Undervalued wrote: »

Sorry, but with the greatest respect you have had lots of good advice on here from some very experienced people but you have chosen to largely ignore it.

Ultimately it is your decision, nobody else's. You have chosen to go into this without proper legal advice and you have chosen to turn down a settlement offer of roughly 2.5 times the average tribunal award.

Now, you may be proved right and there is something about your case that makes it one of the small minority that attract a significant award. Time will tell.

Or, you may end up with nothing and your case be one of the few where costs are successfully claimed against you.

Without the full facts (and this is not the place) I don't think anybody can offer more than general advice. Keeping relevant facts back, like the tribunal being next week, doesn't exactly help either!

If you have genuinely been wronged by your employer, as far as employment law is concerned, then I hope you get just compensation. However, as I have said before, an ET is not the place to try and get your employer "punished" for other transgretions be they major or minor.

To be fair to the OP they said in their very first post that the Tribunal was in February (ie next week).


As a Litigant in Person the OP is also entitled to pursue their case in their best interests - and from what I have read they have both taken advice from some on here as well as conducting their own independent research.


I agree each case turns on its own merits and value. But, of course, some on here said the OP should have accepted £500 or £2k and have been grateful.


The average award for an unfair dismissal claim was £13,851 in 2015/16, although by definition statistics are historic and that was an increase of £1,500 on the previous year, so just over £15k is exactly what is to be expected on average for this year and is presumably why the Respondents made this tempting offer.


Maybe it's different wherever you live, but in my home city, the press covers at least 1 employment case each week, so that statement is untrue. Yes, the award of £1.8m last year was highly unusual but there were several of £50k.


Yes, only 5% are awarded Costs at an ET, although again in the past 2 years more Claimants than Respondents have been awarded costs - averaging £1k - reversing the previous position.


You've twice stated that in your view it would be a 'misuse' by a Claimant/Appellant to raise matters at an ET or County Court which point out the failings of the Respondent/Defendant employer in relation to their other duties. It would not. It goes to their very credibility as well as the fact that a Judge can refer the matter to other appropriate authorities such as HSE, ICO, HMRC, NICA, HOBA, NCA, SFO and so on if they have failed to comply with their statutory duties in other areas. Indeed, it would be odd for the OP not to given that they have previously reported the employer for such a failing and this is allegedly why they dismissed the OP without notice.


Yes it's always akin to a David v Goliath fight, but I wish the OP well in whether they achieve settlement on Monday or proceed with the full ET next week. A principled stance shouldn't blind the OP to a negotiated settlement still being achievable within the next week, but I can fully understand her moral compass and it's commendable what they have achieved to date, largely through their own research.

annandale

If the offer was 15 thousand and that's the average award made at tribunal then surely it could be argued that there's a case for accepting rather than going through the process

Also someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the bulk of compensation in unfair dismissal cases is from loss of earnings.

The OP found work fairly quickly. She's not actually said how much earnings she's lost but it could be that the 15 grand award is more than the tribunal will award for loss of earnings.

Converse20

annandale wrote: »

If the offer was 15 thousand and that's the average award made at tribunal then surely it could be argued that there's a case for accepting rather than going through the process

Also someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the bulk of compensation in unfair dismissal cases is from loss of earnings.

The OP found work fairly quickly. She's not actually said how much earnings she's lost but it could be that the 15 grand award is more than the tribunal will award for loss of earnings.

£15k is less than my loss of earnings.

Converse20

Mersey wrote: »

To be fair to the OP they said in their very first post that the Tribunal was in February (ie next week).


As a Litigant in Person the OP is also entitled to pursue their case in their best interests - and from what I have read they have both taken advice from some on here as well as conducting their own independent research.


I agree each case turns on its own merits and value. But, of course, some on here said the OP should have accepted £500 or £2k and have been grateful.


The average award for an unfair dismissal claim was £13,851 in 2015/16, although by definition statistics are historic and that was an increase of £1,500 on the previous year, so just over £15k is exactly what is to be expected on average for this year and is presumably why the Respondents made this tempting offer.


Maybe it's different wherever you live, but in my home city, the press covers at least 1 employment case each week, so that statement is untrue. Yes, the award of £1.8m last year was highly unusual but there were several of £50k.


Yes, only 5% are awarded Costs at an ET, although again in the past 2 years more Claimants than Respondents have been awarded costs - averaging £1k - reversing the previous position.


You've twice stated that in your view it would be a 'misuse' by a Claimant/Appellant to raise matters at an ET or County Court which point out the failings of the Respondent/Defendant employer in relation to their other duties. It would not. It goes to their very credibility as well as the fact that a Judge can refer the matter to other appropriate authorities such as HSE, ICO, HMRC, NICA, HOBA, NCA, SFO and so on if they have failed to comply with their statutory duties in other areas. Indeed, it would be odd for the OP not to given that they have previously reported the employer for such a failing and this is allegedly why they dismissed the OP without notice.


Yes it's always akin to a David v Goliath fight, but I wish the OP well in whether they achieve settlement on Monday or proceed with the full ET next week. A principled stance shouldn't blind the OP to a negotiated settlement still being achievable within the next week, but I can fully understand her moral compass and it's commendable what they have achieved to date, largely through their own research.

Thankyou for your kind words.

Taking £15k, which is less than my lost earnings by the way, would be the easiest thing to do and would ease the pressures of going to the hearing. But I believe that I've got a strong case.

Sometimes this page can get quite negative but it really has provided an amazing amount of help and I really am so grateful to everyone that comments on this post.

dlmcr

This is an interesting thread and much more knowledgable people than me have already responded but here are a few of my thoughts:

You talked about around 4k lost earnings but you also quickly found re-employment and then later in the thread you said that 15k "doesn't even begin to cover losses".

Have you prepared a schedule which details what you have quantifiably *actually* lost in actual money as a direct result of being dismissed and how did that compare with the offer of 15k when you presented that schedule to them? Leading on from this what are you actually claiming for...? and why would you be awarded that by a court? because I cannot see that you have "lost" anywhere near the amount they are offering you.

To be honest it is not really clear from reading the last 7 pages what you are trying to achieve by taking this to tribunal.

What tribunal outcome would make you happy? 2k from them? A slap on the wrist? When you look back on this in 5 years would 15k now make you feel better than 2k and a slap on the wrist for the company? Be honest are you just doing this to try and prove a point?

Have you spoken to a solicitor about this at all? 1 hour with a solicitor would have been money well spent in expertise that you don't have considering the amounts of money on the line, maybe it is too late now to see one, I am not sure?

I think that they will either offer slightly more on the morning of the trial because they don't want bad publicity or they will go to trial and the outcome whatever it is will not be a "win" for anyone because the amount awarded I suspect will be low compared to what you think it will be and what it is now because simply there is little quantifiable loss that occurred.

Going against a legal team on your own is another thing but I wish you luck whatever happens.

Converse20

dlmcr wrote: »

This is an interesting thread and much more knowledgable people than me have already responded but here are a few of my thoughts:

You talked about around 4k lost earnings but you also quickly found re-employment and then later in the thread you said that 15k "doesn't even begin to cover losses".

EDIT-
£2k for me and a slap on the wrist for them, but me being officially unfairly dismissed and being able to work in an industry that I have much expertise and experience would be much preferable to £15k that is basically a few nice holidays and a Chanel bag!

If I'm honest, I don't think I do want to settle.



Have you prepared a schedule which details what you have quantifiably *actually* lost in actual money as a direct result of being dismissed and how did that compare with the offer of 15k when you presented that schedule to them? Leading on from this what are you actually claiming for...? and why would you be awarded that by a court? because I cannot see that you have "lost" anywhere near the amount they are offering you.

To be honest it is not really clear from reading the last 7 pages what you are trying to achieve by taking this to tribunal.

What tribunal outcome would make you happy? 2k from them? A slap on the wrist? When you look back on this in 5 years would 15k now make you feel better than 2k and a slap on the wrist for the company? Be honest are you just doing this to try and prove a point?

Have you spoken to a solicitor about this at all? 1 hour with a solicitor would have been money well spent in expertise that you don't have considering the amounts of money on the line, maybe it is too late now to see one, I am not sure?

I think that they will either offer slightly more on the morning of the trial because they don't want bad publicity or they will go to trial and the outcome whatever it is will not be a "win" for anyone because the amount awarded I suspect will be low compared to what you think it will be and what it is now because simply there is little quantifiable loss that occurred.

Going against a legal team on your own is another thing but I wish you luck whatever happens.

The £4K was reference to non payment during suspension. That was before I was even dismissed!

Loss of earnings after dismissal was £18,400 net.