"Park Watch" are NOT Park watch LTD.

DJMC

My son was given a ticket for parking over the line in a private car park space in Clock Towers shopping centre, Rugby. £100 reduced to £60 if he pays within 14 days.

The ticket was issued by Park Watch Limited, and shows their registered address and company No. 08798058.
It bears the logo of the British Parking Association (BPA) and says they (Park Watch Ltd.) are a member of BPA.

Checking BPA's website, Park Watch Limited does not appear on their member list. There is however another company, Defence Systems Limited (company No. 08047971) T/A Park Watch which IS a BPA member.
Both Park Watch Limited and Defence Systems Limited T/A Park Watch have the same registered office address.

Park Watch Limited has obtained my son's details from DVLA but this company is not a member of BPA or IPC which are the trade associations a firm must belong to in order to get this info from DVLA, as stated here: https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla

DVLA answered a general question from someone about Park Watch Limited's authority to interrogate DVLA for information here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/proof_that_park_watch_limited_is
The questioner asks about Park Watch Limited but the reply relates to a completely different company, Defence Systems Limited.

I have notified DVLA of a potential data protection breach in my son's case and they are investigating.

I asked BPA what right Park Watch Limited have to issue tickets and to use the BPA member logo. They told me via email "Defence Systems Limited t/a Park Watch are a member of the BPA and the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme, and have been since 01/02/2013. Therefore, they can use both the BPA standard logo and the BPA Approved Operator Scheme logo."

This misses the point that one company cannot be another. These two are entirely separate legal entities and cannot share memberships, registrations, rights to interrogate DVLA for keeper information, etc.
Just because one uses the name "Park Watch" as part of their limited company name and the other uses it as a trading name does not mean they are the same legal entity.

I phoned BPA in response to this email and Esme there explained that Park Watch are part of Defence Systems Limited which is a member. That's incorrect. Park Watch Limited cannot be "a part" of another limited company. If Defence Systems Limited T/A Park Watch had issued the ticket all well and good, but they didn't.

Helen at Park Watch Limited (phone number on the ticket) claimed this morning that Park Watch Limited uses the same trading name as Defence Systems Limited. That's as maybe, but I allege Park Watch Limited issued the ticket with no jurisdiction to do so as they are not a member of suitable body, and obtained information from DVLA by deception.

The shopping centre has signage which reads that their car park is patrolled by Defence Systems Limited T/A Park Watch, and the centre manager is looking into my concerns that tickets are being handed out by a different company which is not a member of an accredited trade association for parking management as it has to be to issue tickets and collect DVLA info.

Am I correct, or is there something I'm missing?
Although nobody seems to understand the separate companies involved, I believe I do, and so would a judge should the matter go to court.

Umkomaas

Am I correct, or is there something I'm missing?
Although nobody seems to understand the separate companies involved, I believe I do, and so would a judge should the matter go to court.

Your argument looks plausible to me. Whether you will get any sense from the DVLA is debatable; they normally refer anything that attempts to paint them into a corner back to the BPA.

But kudos for taking a rather new fight to them and I'll be very interested in seeing the final outcome. Please keep us posted.

Your son, however, should start tackling his initial appeal (as per the NEWBIES FAQ sticky) as if the PCN has been issued legitimately so as not to inadvertently run past the 28 day deadline, or he is potentially looking at either a court case or 6 years of hassle and uncertainty. Kill this off at POPLA, fight the DVLA in parallel, but separately.

DJMC

I just phoned my household legal protection for advice. Their solicitor advised that it's common for parking management companies to pass a parking debt on to another company, in this case Defence Systems Ltd to Park Watch Ltd, and therefore the name discrepancy is not a defence in itself.

So, after all, the fine must be paid. Ho hum...

DollyDee_2

Noooooo, the fine, sorry, invoice must not be paid.

As per Umkomaas, your son must appeal as registered keeper not mentioning who was driving.

Read the "NEWBIES FAQ'S" at or near the top of page 1 of this forum. Send the BPA template appeal IN BLUE LETTERS at the appropriate time. Follow the instructions on the PCN to appeal i.e. whether online (take a screenshot) or first class post (with a free certificate of posting from the Post Office counter). Not Recorded/Signed For.

The other issue can be pursued separately unless one of the experts on here advises adding something to the template appeal.

pogofish

DJMC wrote: »

So, after all, the fine must be paid. Ho hum...

THIS IS NOT ANY KIND OF FINE!

Take the advice in the post above and learn how to challenge it more effectively.

HO87

Park Watch Ltd shares directors with Defence Systems Ltd.

That said Park Watch Ltd is an entirely separate legal entity to Defence Systems Ltd t/a Park Watch. Not that the BPA has ever really understood the distinction. One suspects that if pressed the BPA will "admit" that Park Watch Ltd is an AOS member (they have "form" in this respect) - after all they wouldn't want to shed yet another member to the IPC would they?

Whatever the legal status or otherwise of the companies involved is absolutely no reason to simply pay up. As above - this is no fine.

Castle

Park Watch Ltd (Co No 08798058) are a 100% owned subsidiary of Defence Systems Ltd (Co No 08047971). https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08798058/filing-history

There are however two separate legal entities and whilst Park Watch Ltd could act as debt collectors, (providing there's a signed agreement in place), they cannot obtain details from DVLA.

pappa_golf

Castle wrote: »

Park Watch Ltd (Co No 08798058) are a 100% owned subsidiary of Defence Systems Ltd (Co No 08047971). https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08798058/filing-history

There are however two separate legal entities and whilst Park Watch Ltd could act as debt collectors, (providing there's a signed agreement in place), they cannot obtain details from DVLA.

parkwatch is NOT subsidiary of Defence Systems Ltd
, it is a seperate company set up at a different date by the same owners , as it has its own company number it is not a subsidiary ,

the only referance to T/A is in defence systems head defencec systems cannot trade as a company that exists at companies house already

DJMC

DollyDee wrote: »

Noooooo, the fine, sorry, invoice must not be paid.

As per Umkomaas, your son must appeal as registered keeper not mentioning who was driving.

Read the "NEWBIES FAQ'S" at or near the top of page 1 of this forum. Send the BPA template appeal IN BLUE LETTERS at the appropriate time. Follow the instructions on the PCN to appeal i.e. whether online (take a screenshot) or first class post (with a free certificate of posting from the Post Office counter). Not Recorded/Signed For.

The other issue can be pursued separately unless one of the experts on here advises adding something to the template appeal.

You mean this one?:

Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:


Date


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,


By "appropriate time" do you mean AFTER 14 days from the date of the notice? If I do it before 14 days, to avoid £60 turning into £100, this argument over name mis-matching may fail as they could correct the creditor name to that on the signage and issue a new notice from Defence Systems Ltd.

Half_way

DJMC wrote: »

I just phoned my household legal protection for advice.

So, after all, the fine must be paid. Ho hum...

Is that what they told you?

You have not been fined, and you must not pay them
Secondly you should/must instigate complaint procedures against your so called household legal protection advice service their advice is wrong and cold cause people to lose money as a result of their mal practice

DollyDee_2

Yes, that is the correct template for BPA members.

From the NEWBIES STICKY:

Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)

Windscreen ticket? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!

If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal) then wait 3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is and AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE IT). DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL, IF THEY ARE NOT! Victims who rush to appeal could be handing a scam artist their details on a plate and - almost as bad - pointlessly throwing away appeal grounds open to the keeper. Forget the 14 day 'discount' if you wish to appeal; that bribe is not for you.

For example, don't appeal to tickets from 'ANPR Ltd' who are not members of any Trade Body and cannot get your name and address unless you are daft enough to tell them!

October - December 2016: UKCPS are banned from DVLA data! DO NOT APPEAL.


In the case of AOS MEMBERS ONLY, AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT BANNED FROM GETTING DVLA DATA appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template below.


Why wait till day 26 before appealing?

To engage them in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper. Many PPCs forget the NTK when replying to an appeal and if you appeal as 'keeper' then the very fact a PPC then forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA stage.

Don't forget this: if you appeal on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received. You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage.

Check the PCN to see if you can appeal online - if you can't you will have to appeal by first class post (with cert of posting from PO counter) around day 23/24.

Was anything purchased at the retail park? If so, have the receipts been kept or will they appear on a bank/credit statement (suitably redacted obviously)? Complaints to retailers/land owners can get PCN's cancelled.

Again fom the NEWBIes STICKY:



THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC


Don't forget to include a copy of any receipts or bank transactions, proof of patronage if 'the driver' (third person!!) was shopping. And a copy of the Blue Badge if a disabled person was 'an occupant of the car' because in some cases that gets cancellation. Some PPCs, like ParkingEye, cancel early with proof of patronage and it's worth trying, as long as you are careful not to say who parked.


DO NOT SAY 'HERE IS MY RECEIPT FROM MY SHOPPING'.

You can add to the template below, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of': the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc. Not ME, myself or I !