Should My Friend Attend a Disciplinary?

[Deleted User]

My friend has been working as a mobile security guard (he is a dog handler) for four months. The company is small, has been a bit of mare, late payment 2 out of four times (he is PAYE employee), never knowing (sometimes until half an hour before) what time he is to start work - he works nights. This has meant when he's been called into work 3 hours early he's not been able to eat.

He can easily get other work, lots of contact in the business but was going to get Xmas over with before making enquiries.

This is his first job since qualifying. The company have problems retaining employees.., because of this, he has worked for weeks without a single day off. Now he works six days a week. But they have called him in to have him do things for the company, so he rarely gets much sleep. To be honest, I don't know how he's kept going, its made him ill, physically and I've watched him barely able to think, he's so tired. He had to get quite insistent just to get the one day off a week.

This morning he went into the company premises at 6.47 (he was supposed to finish at 7.00.., twelve hour shift) and was told to go to an alarm call in the centre of London. Would have been at least an hour and a half drive (from outside London) each way. And he's back on shift tonight. He probably wouldn't have finished til 11 am.., could be later depending on traffic. There are no day staff.

He refused. He's now being called in for disciplinary later today (small company so will be just him and the manager). As he's thinking of leaving and can find alternative work is it better he doesn't attend the disciplinary and just leaves? He did sign an employment contract but was never given a copy. He is a eejit, and can't remember anything about notice periods being required, didn't insist on a copy.

Would he be better off going to the disciplinary and maybe having something put on his record.., or just resigning today?

Undervalued

deannatrois wrote: »

My friend has been working as a mobile security guard (he is a dog handler) for four months. The company is small, has been a bit of mare, late payment 2 out of four times (he is PAYE employee), never knowing (sometimes until half an hour before) what time he is to start work - he works nights. This has meant when he's been called into work 3 hours early he's not been able to eat.

He can easily get other work, lots of contact in the business but was going to get Xmas over with before making enquiries.

This is his first job since qualifying. The company have problems retaining employees.., because of this, he has worked for weeks without a single day off. Now he works six days a week. But they have called him in to have him do things for the company, so he rarely gets much sleep. To be honest, I don't know how he's kept going, its made him ill.

This morning he went into the company premises at 6.47 (he was supposed to finish at 7.00 (twelve hour shift) and was told to go to an alarm call in the centre of London. Would have been at least an hour and a half drive (from outside London) each way. And he's back on shift tonight. He probably wouldn't have finished til 11 am.., could be later depending on traffic. There are no day staff.

He refused. He's now being called in for disciplinary later today (small company so will be just him and the manager). As he's thinking of leaving and can find alternative work is it better he doesn't attend the disciplinary and just leaves? He did sign an employment contract but was never given a copy. He is a eejit, and can't remember anything about notice periods being required, didn't insist on a copy.

Would he be better off going to the disciplinary and maybe having something put on his record.., or just resigning today?

Resigning won't help from that point of view as they could simply say in any reference request "resigned whilst under investigation for potential gross misconduct" which would be read as "dismissed"!

If he has a defence he should put it forward, if he doesn't he should apologise profusely and promise it won't happen again. He might then just possibly get away with a warning.

[Deleted User]

I think he just wants to leave. I don't think apologising is going to happen. No one can work the hours he's been working and keep going.

missbiggles1

Has he been paid for the hours he works and his travelling time?

kazwookie

If he does go to the meeting, make sure he takes someone with him as a witness to any thing said. Failing that he must take his own notes etc

[Deleted User]

Believe it or not, he hasn't been given a single pay slip. He has asked for them but has not been given any. He is an employee on salary. So he doesn't even know what tax and NI has been paid, or for how many hours he's been paid. He has kept a record of the hours he's worked. Its not a good company to work for, really not.

No I don't know why he's still working for them either lol.

Is there anything he can say to them to say 'legally you should be giving me payslips' to make sure he gets them? I'm a bit worried about his tax and NI.

I have found http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_slip.html. He says he has tried to insist on being given payslips, but they just haven't been given, similiar to the contract of employment he signed.

Malthusian

If he can easily get other work - i.e. a bad reference or lack of reference from this employer is not a problem - then I don't see the dilemma. It's purely about how long he wants to stick it out and get paid for it. If he wants to stick it out until he finds another job then he should go to the disciplinary and stare at the ceiling while they bawl him out, knowing that it doesn't matter tuppence.

Although they obviously should provide him with payslips I'm not sure how you would go about compelling them. Is it worth contacting HMRC with his National Insurance number and trying to find out from that end?

[Deleted User]

Good idea.

theoretica

A twelve hour shift followed by that extra would have been 16 hours - are the dogs expected to work that long too?

I wouldn't be apologising, but explaining that sleep is a physical necessity.

barbaraemmerson

I would quote health and safety - you say it is an hour and a half DRIVE - would quote that they are putting him in a dangerous position when too tired to drive following a night shift

[Deleted User]

Thank you. He went to the meeting, recorded it. Gave a full explanation as to why he refused to do the alarm call (not much point as he wouldn't get there til after the client firm's day staff were in, he needed authorisation from the security firm's director as previous excess payments were not authorised by him and he refused to pay them - obviously this would incur extra hours payments - and it was very close to his end of shift.

I have felt quite concerned about him falling asleep at the wheel with the hours he has been doing but he didn't mention this on this occasion. The point about the dog's hours is also very valid.

He's given two weeks notice, has already been asked to do other jobs, and asked formally in writing for payslips and his contract of employment.

Apparently he's also discovered this http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1373

Night working
A night worker is someone who normally works at least 3 hours during the night period, which is the period between 11pm to 6am, unless the worker and employer agree a different night period.

Night workers should not work more than an average of 8 hours in 24-hour period. This average is usually calculated over a 17 week reference period, but it can be over a longer period if the workers and employer agree. Regular overtime is included in the average and workers can't opt out of this limit.

The important bit is '<night> workers can't opt out of this limit'. So his employers did mention that he'd opted out of the 8 hour rule when he said he was being forced to work excess night hours, but he said that night workers can't opt out.

However, I remember working 12 hour night shifts as a nurse. So a lot of night workers are doing excess hours if this rule really does apply as it reads. A lot of industries would be in trouble lol.