Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

mrginge

CLAPTON wrote: »

you make a very persuasive case for not needing more people in the uK

Exactly the way I read it too.

padington

CLAPTON wrote: »

you make a very persuasive case for not needing more people in the uK

We need to increase our workforce to pay off the debt from the money lost in 2008 otherwise we will have to make massive cuts to pensions or devalue our currency so much that everything from overseas will cost loads more.

Over the next 30 years with an increased workforce we can then pour our saved billions from interest rapayments into making the next generation of kids the best taught bunch of geeks ever but not if we are crippled by debt and massive rising costs of living because we decided that although there was lots of work to do (and tax to collect) we prefered to ensure we had no extra Hands to help because prejudices of others had been stoked by people for no good reason.

The choice is ours, we could renegade on all public sector pensions and only pay out half or pay police and teachers close to minimum wage etc or offshore millions of public sector jobs using Skype etc. No doubt we'll do a bit of everything but personally I would prefer more immigration as the least worst option.

The best option is that immigration is only temporary for while you need it. This happens really well when people are free to move around and you don't have an overly generous benefits system magnetising people to stay but instead a generous low pay tax system making low pay jobs pay better.

The bottom line is for every new worker on our soil, we become richer, not poorer. It's immigration that's paid for and manned much of the services we so yearn for. They have been our turbine of wealth and health.

If you want to go back to plumbers charging £200 an hour if you are lucky or a flooded house if you are not, feel free but I don't.

CLAPTON

padington wrote: »

We need to increase our workforce to pay off the debt from the money lost in 2008 otherwise we will have to make massive cuts to pensions or devalue our currency so much that everything from overseas will cost loads more.

the period from 2003 has been a continuous period of increasing debt : this has been the period of continuous increasing immigration too.
It would seem that more people didn't actually lead to falling debt level.
Our debt , inspite of a population increase of many millions is still increasing by the day.

Of course debt is not the sole criteria of the quality of life : silly things like adequate housing, decent wage rates , higher productivity, better transport, better access to NHS etc and also factors that most people would identify as being important factors.
All these things have been made a lot worse by the 8 million un-necessary increase in population.

Over the next 30 years with an increased workforce we can then pour our saved billions from interest rapayments into making the next generation of kids the best taught bunch of geeks ever but not if we are crippled by debt and massive rising costs of living because we decided that although there was lots of work to do (and tax to collect) we prefered to ensure we had no extra Hands to help because prejudices of others had been stoked by people for no good reason.

You totally ignore the huge need to provide increased infrastructure to support the vast increae in population that you think is a good.

The choice is ours, we could renegade on all public sector pensions and only pay out half or pay police and teachers close to minimum wage etc or offshore millions of public sector jobs using Skype etc. No doubt we'll do a bit of everything but personally I would prefer more immigration as the least worst option.

this is nonsense: our existing population can support our base level of population:

The best option is that immigration is only temporary for while you need it. This happens really well when people are free to move around and you don't have an overly generous benefits system magnetising people to stay but instead a generous low pay tax system making low pay jobs pay better.

I see no logic in this : just wish forefulment; but at least you want the foreigners to go away eventually however unlikely that scenerio is.

The bottom line is for every new worker on our soil, we become richer, not poorer. It's immigration that's paid for and manned much of the services we so yearn for. They have been our turbine of wealth and health.

If you want to go back to plumbers charging £200 an hour if you are lucky or a flooded house if you are not, feel free but I don't.

every extra worker requires housing, healthcare, doctors, nurses, schools, transport services, higher imports, pensions etc and make us worse off.

padington

If you want to go back to plumbers charging £200 an hour if you are lucky or a flooded house if you are not, feel free but I don't.

padington

If you want to go back to plumbers charging £200 an hour if you are lucky or a flooded house if you are not, feel free but I don't.

Crap cars, crap food, crap mono culture, prosecco banned or twice the price, export taxes, higher cost of living, visa's everywhere, a nation ridiculed and sidelined and back on the decline like before we entered the EU.

I don't.

Last man to leave to Canada turn the lights out.

mrginge

padington wrote: »

The solution is to encourage anyone able to re-skill quick and focus all energy towards encouraging personal growth to help UK plc take lead of this new technological revolution and work with the world to consider ways we can franchise everyone into this new world quickly. The citizens wage is a great idea which we should trial maybe linked with more education. Borrowing to upskill our population is a great idea. Creating unions of countries working to make universal laws of decency and fairness is a good idea which can ensure the the robots are taxed to pay for the education of others is a great idea. Maximising people's freedoms is good idea where it doesn't hurt others. Making sure when people feel hurt, their anger is well placed to help them overcome their problems in a real and meaningful way is a great idea.

Making people believe their problems are all caused because of foreigners is not a great idea.

Borrowing to invest is a great idea. As long as there is a quantifiable return on that investment.
You would agree that a huge investment in skills development would be fairly pointless if those skills did not get used. For example, why bother training up a load of electricians if businesses simply go off and employ cheaper electricians from country X instead.

Perhaps it would make more sense to be able to focus our skills investments into the areas that we as a country believe we have chronic shortages of. Perhaps businesses could be asked to contribute to our long term planning rather than simply take the short-term, low cost option.
Perhaps then we can reduce the need for immigration in these areas and become self-sufficient
Perhaps then we can offer some hope to the next generation that they are not going to have to train and study at (usually their own) great expense to then find that they have to compete with others who have been equally trained up at less cost and have less salary requirements.

I often hear that the NHS would fall apart without immigration. People say that as though it's a positive message, well to me that says we have failed. We should be ashamed that we haven't got the skilled people here to run our NHS. If we want to invest huge sums of uk taxpayers money into training up nurses then we should be able to put them right at the top of the job queue and the NHS/companies should be picking from them first. Immigration should support businesses where there is a shortage, but not to the detriment of national interest.

So to me the underlying problem with FoM is that it is barrier to skills investment and that is why I would prefer to see it removed and replaced with a managed immigration system.

paddyrg

Moby wrote: »

Things are changing, traditional left right politics seems to be being replaced by brexit v remain progressive v socially conservative divides. I have never been so conscious of a divided country.

You might be interested in More United http://www.moreunited.uk/ who are non-partizan but with a mission to support the more inclusive candidates across parties based on individual commitments. I don't know if it'll work long-term, but it's an interesting and indeed quite exciting step away from entrenched 2-party system.

For my money, there's a very credible member of Labour who could bring people in earnest - Dan Jarvis, back in the shadows after Corbyn's rise, but held under good esteem by a lot of the non-Corbyn camp.

padington

mrginge wrote: »

Borrowing to invest is a great idea. As long as there is a quantifiable return on that investment.
You would agree that a huge investment in skills development would be fairly pointless if those skills did not get used. For example, why bother training up a load of electricians if businesses simply go off and employ cheaper electricians from country X instead.

Perhaps it would make more sense to be able to focus our skills investments into the areas that we as a country believe we have chronic shortages of. Perhaps businesses could be asked to contribute to our long term planning rather than simply take the short-term, low cost option.
Perhaps then we can reduce the need for immigration in these areas and become self-sufficient
Perhaps then we can offer some hope to the next generation that they are not going to have to train and study at (usually their own) great expense to then find that they have to compete with others who have been equally trained up at less cost and have less salary requirements.

I often hear that the NHS would fall apart without immigration. People say that as though it's a positive message, well to me that says we have failed. We should be ashamed that we haven't got the skilled people here to run our NHS. If we want to invest huge sums of uk taxpayers money into training up nurses then we should be able to put them right at the top of the job queue and the NHS/companies should be picking from them first. Immigration should support businesses where there is a shortage, but not to the detriment of national interest.

So to me the underlying problem with FoM is that it is barrier to skills investment and that is why I would prefer to see it removed and replaced with a managed immigration system.

The elephant in that all these leavers think we'll turn into Australia the moment we replicate their points based system. We won't. We don't enjoy a whole continent of resources to ourselves.

We need hands on deck to pay down tax to pay off debt.

If we don't, the NHS will fall apart.

mrginge

padington wrote: »

The elephant in that all these leavers think we'll turn into Australia the moment we replicate their points based system. We won't. We don't enjoy a whole continent of resources to ourselves.

We need hands on deck to pay down tax to pay off debt.

If we don't, the NHS will fall apart.

No they don't. Australia is a very different country with completely different pressures and requirements.
An Australian points based system has already been ruled out.

The idea that immigration is going to pay off our debts is beyond ridiculous and not bourne out by any historical evidence anywhere, ever.

CLAPTON

padington wrote: »

The elephant in that all these leavers think we'll turn into Australia the moment we replicate their points based system. We won't. We don't enjoy a whole continent of resources to ourselves.

We need hands on deck to pay down tax to pay off debt.

If we don't, the NHS will fall apart.

if we wanted to half our debt per person we could import 65 million people
if we wanted to reduce our debt per person by 75% then we would need about 200,million immigrants

if we wanted to reduce our debt to GDP ratio by these amounts we would need these immigrant to be producing goods and services at least to the current average level.

of course this would cause a huge increase in essential imports (food etc) and no necessary increase in exports. We would need to fund these essential imports by foreign borrowing.

how many new people do you think we need?