is it possible to "leak" electricity?

Cardew

Raxiel wrote: »

I remember hearing something a couple of years ago about induction hobs being really bad for 'vampire' draw. Don't know if it was a particular brand or just ones with soft touch controls, or all of them, but could be worth looking into.

For those unaware of the term 'vampire draw' it is term borrowed from our American cousins and simply means 'Standby' consumption.

There is also a great deal of nonsense talked about the standby consumption of induction hobs.

Without going into the complexity of power factor and non-sinusoidal electricity supplies, the simple energy meters we use in domestic situations will give wildly inaccurate readings. What matters is consumption of kWh as measured on the main meter.

Raxiel

Cardew wrote: »

For those unaware of the term 'vampire draw' it is term borrowed from our American cousins and simply means 'Standby' consumption.

There is also a great deal of nonsense talked about the standby consumption of induction hobs.

Without going into the complexity of power factor and non-sinusoidal electricity supplies, the simple energy meters we use in domestic situations will give wildly inaccurate readings. What matters is consumption of kWh as measured on the main meter.

Sorry for using the wrong term.
As I understood it, 'vampire' was used for standby draw you might not expect. So something like a Sky box on standby draws power but you expect that because its still doing things (recording programs updating the epg), while for a hob a lot of people might assume that off means off.
I guess that interpretation isn't as widely used as I thought.

Anyway, I didn't say it was a problem, just that it's worth investigating if consumption is higher than expected. I'm sure the thing I read mentioned one particular hob being warm to the touch, which suggests more than just PFC weirdness although it was some time ago.

Edit: After a bit more research (which, yes, I admit I should have done before) I see what you mean, but there are still reports of older hobs using 15-20w in standby after correcting for the power factor, which is still, in my opinion, pretty high.

lorhen1966

Raxiel wrote: »

I remember hearing something a couple of years ago about induction hobs being really bad for 'vampire' draw. Don't know if it was a particular brand or just ones with soft touch controls, or all of them, but could be worth looking into.

Really?? we chose induction because we read and were told that they are more energy efficient than conventional electric hobs

Ive just read down the thread a bit further

poppasmurf_bewdley

lorhen1966 wrote: »

For a number of years now every time we have looked into switching our energy and spoken to an adviser we have been asked "how much" or "are you sure" when questioned about our electric usage. Ive been online to our existing energy provider and on a comparison with 1349 other similar users we are paying 126% more than average which ties in with figures from Uswitch, Utility Warehouse and Ovo too. Apparently the national average for a high energy user is between 4000 and 5000KWpH and our usage for the last 4 years has been 8858, 8990, 8526 and 9488.

I rang their energy efficiency helpline and didn't get anywhere so would be ever so grateful if anyone could tell me how we start looking into this. Can the wiring be faulty and therefore be using more than it needs? sorry to sound thick but I really don't know how to detect something I cant see, hear or smell.

lorhen1966 wrote: »

Thank you, that is really useful information. I know that we are classed as high users and have compared with other users using the following parameters, detached house, 5 bedrooms (only 4 used), 5 people, built in 1989. Loft is insulated and cavity walls are insulated. Heated by gas central heating which goes on at 7am for 2 hours and then back on again at 3pm until 11pm weekdays, its on a bit more at the weekend. Underfloor heating in extension which was added in 2008, boiler and electric circuit board replaced at the same time. No electric fires etc. Main appliances are 2 fridge freezers, dishwasher, washing machine, tumble drier, microwave, induction hob, oven replaced in 2014 for more energy efficient one, 2 desktop computers, 9 TVs but max of 3 on at a time, usually in the evening for 4/5 hours, Sky Q with 3 mini boxes, plus everything else everyone else has ie kettle, iron, vacuum cleaner etc. Nothing stays on standby, all gets switched off when not being used. My main worry is whether the wiring is safe. We have a digital meter which only displays 5 digits and Ive taken a reading at 2pm this afternoon. I will read it again at 2pm for the next few days to see if I can get a daily usage figure.

I don't think you can say that a five bedroomed house with five people living there is average.

I would have thought an average house was a three bed semi with three people living in it.

All the items you have listed above indicate a much more than average use of electricity.

To give you an idea, I now live alone (with the exception of my girlfriend staying every other weekend) in a two and a half bed rural cottage, only use one TV at a time, use an electric fan heater for an hour each morning, have showers from the combi boiler (LPG), hardly ever use the tumble dryer, washing machine once a week, electric cooking, and I pay £24 a month to Eon which leaves me with a small surplus every year.

Raxiel

lorhen1966 wrote: »

Really?? we chose induction because we read and were told that they are more energy efficient than conventional electric hobs

In use they certainly are, but some can have a higher standby draw than you might expect, it probably depends on how old it is. It won't be the sole cause, and in your case might not even be an issue at all, but all these little bits add up.
Even if it is using a lot, I wouldn't suggest the expense of replacing it, just less reason to worry about the wiring.

lorhen1966

poppasmurf_bewdley wrote: »

I don't think you can say that a five bedroomed house with five people living there is average.

I would have thought an average house was a three bed semi with three people living in it.

All the items you have listed above indicate a much more than average use of electricity.

To give you an idea, I now live alone (with the exception of my girlfriend staying every other weekend) in a two and a half bed rural cottage, only use one TV at a time, use an electric fan heater for an hour each morning, have showers from the combi boiler (LPG), hardly ever use the tumble dryer, washing machine once a week, electric cooking, and I pay £24 a month to Eon which leaves me with a small surplus every year.

The amount of money we are paying is not really relevant to my question, its more a case of trying to find out about the level of KWpH that we are reportedly using which is the issue. I'm trying to work out if it is just over-use or if there is a fault somewhere such as the meter.

I realise we are not an average sized family and have acknowledged that we are high users so have compared like with like - your situation is very different to mine and doesn't give me anything to compare against. The first sentence that you have highlighted states that compared to other similar types houses with the same amount of people etc, we are paying more so I'm not sure if you have picked this up wrong. It isn't comparing our usage to the normal average usage.

Cardew

Personally I think for the property size and the use of electrical appliances etc, your consumption is to be expected.

You can roughly check the meter yourself, as described above.

ASavvyBuyer

lorhen1966 wrote: »

Really?? we chose induction because we read and were told that they are more energy efficient than conventional electric hobs

Our hob gets warm by the touch controls when left on standby. Have not measured how much it uses on standby, but would not be supprised to find it to be about 10-20 watts. We switch it off at the wall socket when not in use; safer aswell, just in case something gets put on it and if it was accidently turned on by the touch controls.

We used to have a remote controlled light/fan in the conservatory, at our old house, that used to draw nearly 30 watts when left on standby. Worked out it was using about 720 watts a day, just for the convenience of being able to control it from the remote. That got switched off at the fused spur when not in use!

Cardew

Raxiel wrote: »

Sorry for using the wrong term.
As I understood it, 'vampire' was used for standby draw you might not expect. So something like a Sky box on standby draws power but you expect that because its still doing things (recording programs updating the epg), while for a hob a lot of people might assume that off means off.
I guess that interpretation isn't as widely used as I thought.

Anyway, I didn't say it was a problem, just that it's worth investigating if consumption is higher than expected. I'm sure the thing I read mentioned one particular hob being warm to the touch, which suggests more than just PFC weirdness although it was some time ago.

Edit: After a bit more research (which, yes, I admit I should have done before) I see what you mean, but there are still reports of older hobs using 15-20w in standby after correcting for the power factor, which is still, in my opinion, pretty high.

Hi, My post wasn't in any way a criticism of you mentioning what is IMO simply an 'Urban Myth' i.e. the high standby consumption of induction hobs.

I have read all these reports of 20w or more on standby and, again IMO, they are a nonsense. From what I can see none of the manufacturers include standby consumption in their brochures. My Neff manual goes down to great detail on electrical consumption parameters, but doesn't mention standby consumption.

The Energy Saving Trust states:

Recent regulations specify that all electrical products sold within the EU after 2010 cannot have a standby power greater than 1W.

Given the emphasis in all countries to save on standby consumption it is inconceivable that specific mention would not be made of induction hobs if they had such high consumption.

The most believable comment I found on-line was the technical manager of a manufacturer who stated standby consumption was less than 0.5w.

Assuming Einstein is correct, the 20w would need to manifest itself as heat. That is the heat of a low power bulb and that is still too hot to handle, certainly it would be felt on a hob.

System

lorhen1966 wrote: »

The amount of money we are paying is not really relevant to my question, its more a case of trying to find out about the level of KWpH that we are reportedly using which is the issue. I'm trying to work out if it is just over-use or if there is a fault somewhere such as the meter.

.

If you really want to know then look at buying a Smappee or NorthQ energy monitor which have the ability to 'listen' for appliances in use. They can then produce reports for each of your large appliances. Apparently, these monitors are selling well but I am not tempted.

http://northq.com/electricitysavingkit/