On-grid domestic battery storage

joefizz

Solarchaser wrote: »

I mounted no racks, the batteries sit on the floor under the wall mounted sofar, so no extra cost, still at £512/kWh.

I started off with 2 batteries sitting on the floor with 8 sets of 6x2ps masking taped together as spacers.
When I went to 4 batteries just made a couple of side panels with off cuts of 2x1 timber, pinned and glued together.


I put an extra socket directly below the sofar with cable and plug attached to the UPS output of the sofar. Ive written above the plug socket in permanent marker the instructions for use just in case its not me ;-) Make sure CU is turned off, put plug in socket, switch on and sofar takes over supplying the whole house as a UPS (well not strictly true in my case as Ive had the CU partitioned up - originally so I could plug a generator into exterior garden socket and power office, lighting, kitchen).
A spark might insist on installing a big red lockable switch instead of a hanging wire, plug and socket but installing an automatic cutover wouldnt meet regs as you could be putting out live along wires as someone tries to fix them (or draining your battery powering the street ;-))
If anyone has the ME3000SP its worth having that looked at, even if you could just power one room or like me have the ability to power your oil fired heating from the battery. Its included functionality and the extra cost to have the circuit fully installed is negligible overall.

zeupater

joefizz wrote: »

... but it does make it hard to type and unzipping 6 layers just to have a pee no matter how high it goes up the wall, is just too big a stretch...

Hi

So you have an atypical usage pattern which may only apply to somewhere well in excess of 1:10000 (?) households when property size, inhabitants, occupation patterns, lifestyle change choices etc. are taken into consideration and I totally accept an applaud what you've done & achieved, but that doesn't necessarily apply to what others can do or are willing to do to change their lifestyle.

Regarding "how high it goes up the wall", well just consider the recent history concerning this ... of course, most would consider raising masters degrees, environmental auditing, international travel, overseas friends, whiteboard exercises, trivialisation of others and such as just that ... especially so when the sum of others posting on the forum would undoubtedly bring similar qualifications, employment history, lifestyle choices & circle of friends to the table without the need to consider bladder pressure ...

What works for you only works for you because you've taken choices that the majority of others can't so please do review your approach to the subject at hand ... for example, 1961Nick has mentioned that their battery decision results from a wish to reduce electricity usage without impacting too much on the way they live, there are a couple of others that don't care too much about returns and just want to leave a legacy of a better world for following generations ... then again, there are also those living in multi-occupancy homes with considerably lower overall energy use than your own 'green' credentials ... and that's before the emission related to international travel etc ...

Apart from that I really don't know what to say that wouldn't trigger another landslide of what, in terms of 'On-Grid domestic battery storage", is mainly irrelevant waffle ....

As a side observation, considering your electricity usage pattern (including batteries!) is highly weighted towards summer resulting in 'negligible electricity energy outlay per year', the electricity bill for Q4 last year seems particularly high at '70 quid in December for that quarter' ... wouldn't that logically represent over 400kWh over 3 months on a no standing charge basis? .... that's around 3x higher than both our last Q4 usage and what we've averaged for Q4 since having PV installed ... again, this is without batteries(us) vs with batteries(you), which doesn't seem to support all of the environmental rhetoric which has been forthcoming recently ... as mentioned, it's just an observation, but to anyone following this thread it's likely a particularly valid one !

HTH
Z

joefizz

1961Nick wrote: »

Pylontech also make a US3000 plus 3.5kWh battery. Discounts are poor at the moment but it might not be long before they catch up with the US2000 plus discounts.

I genuinely dont know on this as theres mixed reports from some of the industry people I know. Most of them dont believe that solar/battery is a consumer product and theres no way you are going to see it in a retail environment available for the masses. Ikea tried it and I dont think they extended it to NI and have closed with end of UK Fit.


A lot of installations here in NI have been refused, simply because the network is playing catchup. With the regs as is a lot of the local networks have reached saturation point (rural locations) under current DNO standards. The regs are antiquated as is the network management so there is scope for growth in the physical infrastructure but not on paper.


The pylontech stuff does seem to have commercial orientation and I think the actual in home solar capability is just an add on to its true original purpose of commercial and indeed groups of residential homes. As I mentioned before one of the presentations I was at last year was about development of a distributed, flexible network and every single network is playing catchup to the installations at the minute. The ending of ROCs and FIT show that they have pretty much reached target levels and until the next network review, upgrades etc there is unlikely to be anything similar soon.
These were all infrastructure ideas and used subsidies to attract people to fulfil their infrastructure requirements.

There will be a big push for local storage (battery or otherwise) at the local distribution point level (transformers etc) in areas where there are high levels of generation or direct at concentrated sources (large wind turbines etc) to smooth out loading.
I dont expect home batteries to be phased out/banned/requisitioned but I do expect power companies to lobby to keep prices high (applying full VAT for instance, something that would make it a hell of a lot more attractive and cost effective). Whether that happens or not is anyones guess but right now networks across the UK couldnt cope with it all becoming a cheap, easily purchased consumer product.


There have always been rumours that certain well known high capacity nice shiny on the wall product manufacturers have a home battery line to utilise those vehicle and commercial battery packs that dont quite meet specs for those environments. I have read about people using end of life vehicle and commercial UPS battery packs successfully in home-made home installations. Some have even gone so far to say that open up the boxes and lay side by side and they are virtually indistinguishable.


So perhaps if thats true then remanufactured end of life commercial products will have a home in the home energy market but will never really be widespread. If you think about it if we are all using electric cars and their battery packs as network smoothing and home energy backup then why would we need a home battery (other than when car is away, in which case we would need something small like say the pylontech...)


I would love to see solar and battery in every single newbuild where practically possible but theres no network or political will to see that happen.

Over here they would rather spend the dough selling their mates wood pellet boilers and having every church hall, golf club and empty farmers barn heated to 28C, literally tax payers money going up in flames.

joefizz

zeupater wrote: »

As a side observation, considering your electricity usage pattern (including batteries!) is highly weighted towards summer resulting in 'negligible electricity energy outlay per year', the electricity bill for Q4 last year seems particularly high at '70 quid in December for that quarter' ... wouldn't that logically represent over 400kWh over 3 months on a no standing charge basis? .... that's around 3x higher than both our last Q4 usage and what we've averaged for Q4 since having PV installed ... again, this is without batteries(us) vs with batteries(you), which doesn't seem to support all of the environmental rhetoric which has been forthcoming recently ... as mentioned, it's just an observation, but to anyone following this thread it's likely a particularly valid one !

HTH
Z

As I mentioned multiple times before I work from home and December is usually as busy as June. My work electricity costs outstrip my home usage.
If I could find a solution for December I would but with generation of 35, 30 and 50kwh the last three decembers the only real solution to reduce it would be to stop working completely in December. It is actually something I might consider as I hit 50 in December and my pension kicks in but being honest spending 70 quid on electric for that quarter wouldnt be the reason to stop working ;-)
I will try moving a couple of panels from E/W orientation to south facing angled for December later in the year but again its not really going to make a dent in my December usage, only stopping working will do that.

I would roughly estimate that this year my import for the last 6 weeks of the year may be close to the import for the rest of the year if work patterns remain the same.

Solarchaser

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

However, what I'm trying to convey is that for the the majority of people the option would (as in many other cases!) be to enter into a single supply & install contract & have some form of 'warm feeling' from having followed relevant guidance & regulations on such things ... gas boilers may cost £700 from suppliers on the web, but that doesn't mean that they're not between £1k&£2k more when fitted ... the likes of Screwfix sell consumer units for around £60 but I'd doubt that you'd ring up a local electrician & get one supplied & fitted for much away from 10x that! ....

I could buy a battery unit and install it myself & look to have it signed off by someone for a small consideration too, but that's not the issue .... the point is that unlike yourself, myself & a number of others frequenting this thread recently, most people probably wouldn't consider the risk of not sourcing on a one-stop supply basis in order to receive the correct paperwork & some form of equipment & workmanship guarantee and it's this that I've referenced a couple of times now ....

Find an appropriate supplier that advertises a (national!) supply & professional installation price with all of the appropriate paperwork & relevant consumer guarantee and maybe we can discuss costs/kWh on the same comparative basis as installed prices of alternative brand equipment that have recently been mentioned ... if not we're not really considering on a like-for-like basis and therefore likely irrelevant for the majority of people ...

... But isn't this effectively what I've mentioned before?!


HTH
Z

I was sharing my experiences, and so showing how much it was costing for me, and I was pretty clear that was the case.
I did it to show that me, as an average punter who doesn't mind a bit of messing around, can reduce the costs involved, to make it all more palatable.
Of course for those who are less able/willing/confident then it will cost a bit more, I cant think that anyone reading this thread could have thought I meant anything else to be honest.

However I still feel that all that included the pylontech batteries still offer pretty darn good bang for buck.

Another quick Ebay search reveals a lux power system which is very similar to the sofar, with 9.6kwh of pylontech batteries so 8kwh useable, fully installed with all bits included £4350 so 4350/8kwh = £543/kWh.

Why do I refer to Ebay, well if you can get it for x amount there, invariably you can get it cheaper elsewhere.

And actually the lux system is arguably better than the sofar as it is able to do parralelling, which is what I am personally looking for, so that they charge and discharge together, rather than one system charging another, and also it's got a much better chance of covering the combined loads.

I think what's relevant to note here is that many people come at this from many different angles.

Many come at it like you have, driven by cost/savings, and that you have got your usage already very very low, and are looking at something which will need to be quite low cost because what it can save you, cant be very much, as your Bill's are already so very low.

I've seen a few come at it like joefizz where there is a marked change in behaviours to maximise the return of the investment, and also maximise usage... making hay while the sun shines... so the knock on is less usage when the sun is not there.

I see 100% nothing wrong with either approach, and fair play to you all, mine is just a different angle.

I would like to work the way joefizz does, but in reality, I'm far too lazy to put that much effort in.

What I want the extra panels and batteries to do, is allow me to continue living my life, almost exactly as before, but to save a bit of money... or at least normalise outlay while price increases occur, and also to stop sending money to the grid, that I then have to pay for later on the same day.

You know, I tried running the central heating a couple of degrees lower, but the kids were cold... so I turned it back up, and i think that's the thing for me, if i lived alone i would be doing alot more of what joefizz does, (though again, I'm too lazy to actually do all of that), but i dont, i have a young family, and so i need the system to work for the family, not just me.

I have a car port that the wind whips through day and night regardless of sun splitting the trees, id love to put a wee windmill in there and capture the energy, but the sound of it would drive the neighbour's (and family, and maybe even me) mad I'm sure, so it just cant happen

Yesterday i made 49kwh, and 20 of those went to the grid, which is a bit disappointing, but then everyone was out enjoying the sun.... so how can I complain?
Plus the leaf was charged from 33% to 100% for free.

My point here is that solar +batteries is not a one size fits all, some of it is lifestyle, some of it cost, and some of it is just a... .. hmm, I wonder if that will work

joefizz

Solarchaser wrote: »

Yesterday i made 49kwh, and 20 of those went to the grid, which is a bit disappointing, but then everyone was out enjoying the sun.... so how can I complain?
Plus the leaf was charged from 33% to 100% for free.

With all my shenanigans its generally a good topic of conversation with the neighbours, of course one of them (semi detached, their driveway runs along my garage wall) asked if they got an electric car could they use my solar to charge it....
I already have a 16A socket on the front of the garage to connect to the camper to charge it..
The cheek of it.... ;-)

1961Nick

joefizz wrote: »

I genuinely dont know on this as theres mixed reports from some of the industry people I know. Most of them dont believe that solar/battery is a consumer product and theres no way you are going to see it in a retail environment available for the masses. Ikea tried it and I dont think they extended it to NI and have closed with end of UK Fit.

The Pylontech Phantom-S is aesthetically more of a "consumer product" whereas the US2000/3000 looks industrial.

It was quite a surprise to see how many on this forum already had a battery or were in the process of getting one. Battery storage is clearly picking up momentum & that should continue as prices drop further &/or energy prices increase.

zeupater

gefnew wrote: »

Hi All
Found this on the web spreadsheet for solar batteries and inverter.
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/download-center/electrical-software/calculate-size-of-solar-panel-battery-bank-inverter
regards

Hi

Thanks, I did have a quick look at the link ... had to have a bit of a chuckle though when the 'minutiae' of PF etc was raised ... how dare they! ....

HTH
Z

gefnew

Hi
I thought you would be AMUSED!!.
Then again who are we.
regards

zeupater

gefnew wrote: »

... Then again who are we ...

Hi

No idea really, although it's likely often posed question recently! ... but in terms of the engineering site link provided, probably somewhere in the subset that neither posed the question or answered it! ...

Never took philosophy too seriously, but always found that taking Douglas Adams' approach addresses most situations ... so the average of 41 & 43 is likely the most accurate answer you'll ever find to a question like that being posed on any forum .... :cool:;)


HTH
Z