Pip mini mental state examination (mmse)

belinda1960

What is the purpose of the above ?

A MMSE is a commonly used test for cognitive impairment and/or indicator of dementia etc.

The test seems to be used during PIP medicals for all claimants who express mental health conditions (eg the assessor will ask .... can you spell "WORLD" backwards).

But, why do they bother with the test. I ask because even if a claimant fails to answer MMSE related questions correctly then such a failure does not appear to translate into points being awarded for any of the descriptor categories ... which I thought was the primary purpose of the assessment !?

The_Fiddle_Man

I didn't get asked to spell anything, my examination focused on me just answering his questions from memory.

cmazza

I wasn't asked to spell anything. Like I have said to you before, they just went through the questions on the form with me and asked me to expand a bit more on my answers.

FBaby

But, why do they bother with the test.

The point is to test genuine mental impairment that would score higher than just saying you can't medicate yourself with no evidence. Of course, just planning to misspell just for the purpose of gaining more points is not going to work, but if there medical record that the patient is suffering from mental impairment, struggling to struggle a word, in addition to other 'clues' they would be looking for, can have an impact on the assessment.

You seem to be doing a load of research about the assessment and how to go about it. The more you plan it, the more they will be able to tell that your responses are linked with an expected outcome.

Diary

belinda1960 wrote: »

What is the purpose of the above ?

A MMSE is a commonly used test for cognitive impairment and/or indicator of dementia etc.

The test seems to be used during PIP medicals for all claimants who express mental health conditions (eg the assessor will ask .... can you spell "WORLD" backwards).

But, why do they bother with the test. I ask because even if a claimant fails to answer MMSE related questions correctly then such a failure does not appear to translate into points being awarded for any of the descriptor categories ... which I thought was the primary purpose of the assessment !?

Not sure where you get the impression all claimants for PIP under mental health get the mmse. You are certainly doing a lot of research for your girlfriends claim, I'm assuming this is about her again.
I would hope you aren't transmitting all this to your girlfriend if she has mental health problems, would certainly make anyone with problems anxious to do 'well' which completely defeats the object of the assessment.

I have a very severe entirely physical disability and was asked the mmse questions during my PIP. My husband who has early onset dementia was not. Sometimes doing so much research will mean the assessment becomes about what you think you should be saying and gets blurred with reality.

belinda1960

Thx for replies to date. I have agreed to accompany a few claimants with mental health conditions in liaison with a welfare rights contact that I have. It is the welfare rights team who are principally confused by the purpose of the MMSE.

It does not seem to be used on a universal basis. Moreover, even when claimants fail the test, it does not translate to points being awarded. So what is the purpose ?

Note some members concerns re research, but trust that it can be appreciated that to help folk one needs to better understand the nuances of the process.

NeilCr

belinda1960 wrote: »

Thx for replies to date. I have agreed to accompany a few claimants with mental health conditions in liaison with a welfare rights contact that I have. It is the welfare rights team who are principally confused by the purpose of the MMSE.

It does not seem to be used on a universal basis. Moreover, even when claimants fail the test, it does not translate to points being awarded. So what is the purpose ?

Note some members concerns re research, but trust that it can be appreciated that to help folk one needs to better understand the nuances of the process.

To be honest the best thing may be for your welfare rights team to ask that question of the DWP - if they haven't already done so. They are most likely to know!

At the moment, it would appear that you are accompanying people so I'm not sure that understanding all the nuances are relevant to you. For me, getting the forms done properly is a biggie. At the assessment the important thing is for the applicant to be as relaxed and as honest as possible. They can either spell a word backwards or not - for example.

I don't think, in general, it is too helpful for someone going through an assessment to be thinking - if I say or do this then I may score or not score these points. And, if the accompanying person has that in their mind then that can affect the claimant.

Please don't think I'm knocking you. I know, from experience, that it can be difficult for folks to get support when going for an assessment. And having someone to go with them is great -so brilliant what you are doing. I guess I am just a bit concerned that you could be overthinking this

Alice_Holt

At an assessment (whether PIP or ESA), your reassuring presence may help the claimant to better answer the HCP questions. The important word is BUT; as in
‘Yes I can get out of bed, but not until about 15 minutes after I wake up because I am so stiff on a morning.’
‘Yes, I can cook a simple meal, but on most days I am too exhausted and depressed by the afternoon to prepare anything but a bowl of cereal or a sandwich.”

Helping the cliamant to understand the importance of reliably would be useful i.e -
"Guidance issued by the DWP states that you need to be able to complete an activity ‘reliably’ in order for it to apply. According to the guidance, ‘reliably’ means whether you can do so:
• Safely – in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
• To a necessary and acceptable standard – given the nature of the activity.
• Repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required.
• In a timely manner – in a reasonable time period.
......"

See also https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71632711#Comment_71632711
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal - 'What should I do on the day?'

It may be useful if you can take notes during the assessment. This may prompt the HCP to be more accurate, and it will help the welfare rights team if an appeal to the Tribunal Service is required.
As Neil said I wouldn't overthink the MSE tests. You are correct that even claimants who fail these tests are often described by the HCP as having a good short term memory! So your feedback to the welfare rights team will aid them at appeal stage.

belinda1960

Agree with Neil re submitting a robust application. That is the key.

If , however, a claimant has to attend a medical (as is highly likely for PIP) then it is clearly a lottery.

Also agree with Alice re use of reliably, repeatedly etc .... but again it appears that many HCP's just ignore such statements. Yes, one can appeal, but what a waste of public money and a cause of undue stress.

ev8

I have no idea why.

Luckily I got a good award, but I had it happen and in my report they said I had no problem.

Well I wouldn't as I am a person who can read one word (my trouble is blocks of words, I cannot keep concentration and cannot keep it in my head).

He also showed me the word on a piece of paper and asked me to spell it while looking at it.


I was also tested for my memory, as I have issues where I forget what time it is or if something is on (had fires where I forgot that I've had food on) and he took out his stuff from his drawer at the end of the interview, he asked me one thing after putting them away and then asked for them again. It didn't correspond to what my actual issues are at all and even my mother was there to tell him about the fires.


Luckily I got enhanced on both with points to spare, 22 points on DL, and I have other issues that got it for me, but if I didn't I wouldn't have got an award.

Caroline_a

OP, you seem to be working with a range of claimants rather than one particular person. Is this something you have recently taken up, because i would say that you should find a more robust source for your knowledge than just asking on a forum!

There are, of course, many knowledgeable people on this forum, but I think they would all tell you that you should check out their information from trusted source before you quote it as gospel and use it to assist people.