Advice on no PCN and post 14 day NTK

RV68

I have read much here, and on Parking Cowboys, Parking Prankster and pepipoo but not found a clear answer. I was hoping for any clarification on this query.

A PCM (UK) Ltd NTK was issued for a failure to display a valid permit more than 28 days after the alleged breach, quoting POFA for keeper liability.

No PCN was issued to the driver or the vehicle at the time. I have not accessed the evidence material available on PCM's website, mainly so as not to show interest and possibly reveal myself as a target.

I have not received an LBC as yet, but am looking to consider defence tactics should I do so.

I was intending to use the failure to meet the POFA requirements that if no PCN was issued then the NTK must be issued within 14 days. What I am not clear about is whether this only applies to ANPR PCNs, or does it apply to any PCN no matter how it was detected?

Subsequent observation by me of the location in question revealed on one occasion a man arriving in a car and taking several photos of vehicles parked there. This seems to be the basis of the issuance of PCNs.

Having given this some more thought though I am concerned about the strength of this argument. If the PPC has evidence (PCN issued and then removed for example) then it becomes the drivers word against the PPC. If the expectation (of a court for example) is that the driver makes a witness statement of some kind (written or verbal) then they are forced to incriminate themselves.

If this was such a convincing defence (denying that a manual PCN was issued) then I would expect to see more examples of it, but I haven't.

What I would be grateful for is opinion on how to interpret the relevant POFA schedules with respect to manual PCNs and how to defend them if one was not actually issued (legitimately).

From the two PPC letters...

Date of PCN : 29/07/16
Date of first NTK : 05/09/16 (date of posting 01/09/16)
Date of second NTK : 05/10/16 (date of posting 05/10/16)

Many thanks.

Carthesis

It's very simple.

If you get a windscreen ticket:

After 28 days, the PPC can access RK data from the DVLA. They then have a further 28 days to get an NTK in your hands, so 56 days in total, with the date of parking being Day Zero.

If you DON'T get a windscreen ticket:

The PPC can access DVLA RK data as soon as they want, but have to get the NTK to you and in your hands by day 14, with the date of parking being Day Zero.

The difficulty you have is that they will allege a windscreen ticket was issued. If they can prove that it was - i.e. they have a photo of your car showing it there, then I suppose they've demonstrated compliance with THAT ASPECT of POFA2012.

If they CAN'T prove it, then you're free and clear.

If the CAN prove it, well, then the argument becomes more difficult as you point out.

All you can do is appeal as RK, using the appropriate wording from the **NEWBIES** thread, and require them to produce a copy of the windscreen ticket *AND* evidence that the ticket was correctly issued.

Coupon-mad

No PCN was issued to the driver or the vehicle at the time.

Look closely at the NTK wording, does it say that a PCN 'was served' to the driver and remains unpaid? If so, then they will allege that was the case and a NTK just over a month later is the right timing.

I was intending to use the failure to meet the POFA requirements that if no PCN was issued then the NTK must be issued within 14 days. What I am not clear about is whether this only applies to ANPR PCNs, or does it apply to any PCN no matter how it was detected?

Subsequent observation by me of the location in question revealed on one occasion a man arriving in a car and taking several photos of vehicles parked there. This seems to be the basis of the issuance of PCNs.

That rule applies to 'camera-based' PCNs of any description where the PPC is not saying that a PCN was served to the driver on the day. So the situation you describe (IF they can't show there was a PCN) needed a NTK by day 14 if the keeper is to be held liable.

But check the wording on the front page of the PCN; it should say either way if a PCN was allegedly issued/served.

If this was such a convincing defence (denying that a manual PCN was issued) then I would expect to see more examples of it, but I haven't.

It's strong if there was never a PCN but the timing you have given us (30 days between) sounds exactly like there was a PCN but the driver never saw it. That then becomes a weak 'he said, she said' defence with them probably showing pics of the car with a PCN on it.

I would log in and look at their evidence, no worries about revealing yourself, you are already one of their targets and the best way of defending yourself is by responding to any LBCCC as 'registered keeper' and then if you get a claim, defending it with our assistance. PCM cases are beatable and if this was a residential block car park/own space ticket then the evidence we now have to argue against these is huge.

RV68

Many thanks to you both.

The 28 day NTK states

"... and Parking Charge Notice (PCN) XXXXX was issued (on 29/07/16), for the following breach of contractual terms and conditions: "Parking without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd permit (at time of enforcement)."

The photographic evidence includes a photo of the windscreen, but no evidence of a windscreen ticket. Presumably if the claimant presents a copy of the ticket, this could/should be discounted since there was no evidence that it was issued at the scene.

From what I understand then I think that I have a decent case. I might also have a strong argument over signage, and there is the landowner route of course.

If anyone wishes to give further advice or opinion it would be most welcome. However I understand that you are all very busy dedicating your time to those with court claims, so I have no expectation of further replies. I will likely return if I receive an LBC.

Thanks again.

Carthesis

There is a draft appeal letter i have prepared for cases of this short here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5564449

It may need a small amount of work on your part to add in that although they claim a windscreen ticket was issued, you have been provided no conclusive evidence as such, and thus are treating their first postal NtK as the opening gambit.

MRDOLLAR

Hi there,
I'm hoping I can get some advice regarding a parking fine which has now gone to the county court....which I'm very worried about!
I believe the incident occurred whilst I popped to an ATM to draw some money out which I needed urgently and i parked in a space possibly where I shouldn't have. Literally for 2/3 mins!
The reason I say believe/ unsure because I have thrown away a private parking car Parking company letters as was told via google I didn't have to pay (Uk car parking management) it may be this above incident but unsure as the particulars of claim do not state where the offence occurred.
Should I now acknowledge the claim letter to give more time ? What's my defence have I any ?
I do not wish to have a CCJ and I can't afford these costs.
Hoping someone maybe able to help.
Many thanks
MR DOLLAR

Carthesis

MRDOLLAR wrote: »

Hi there,
I'm hoping I can get some advice regarding a parking fine which has now gone to the county court....which I'm very worried about!
I believe the incident occurred whilst I popped to an ATM to draw some money out which I needed urgently and i parked in a space possibly where I shouldn't have. Literally for 2/3 mins!
The reason I say believe/ unsure because I have thrown away a private parking car Parking company letters as was told via google I didn't have to pay (Uk car parking management) it may be this above incident but unsure as the particulars of claim do not state where the offence occurred.
Should I now acknowledge the claim letter to give more time ? What's my defence have I any ?
I do not wish to have a CCJ and I can't afford these costs.
Hoping someone maybe able to help.
Many thanks
MR DOLLAR

The rule here is one topic, one thread.

Please start your own thread for bespoke advice which you won't get by hijacking someone elses about a very different matter.

Read this: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5546325

then read this: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71228944#Comment_71228944

Then start your own thread and you'll get help.