Tenancy Termination Dispute

G_M

As guests says - always get it in writing especially non-stadard terms or agreements.

arogantiskas wrote: »

Hi,
we commenced a 12 month fixed tenancy for a one bedroom flat 8 months ago.

There were some problems in the flat that were promised to be addressed in the first few weeks of the tenancy. We chase it up numerous times with problems not being fixed. And every time we expressed our unhappiness, agency representative would tell us "If you don't like it, you can leave!" After frustrating and stressful 7 month we decided to take up on their offer.
All should have been dealt with via proper repairing enforcement procedures

We found a new place and just before submitting an offer, I called the former agency to give our notice. We agreed on 6 weeks notice (I got a phone call recorded)
This should have been immediately followed up and confirmed in writing.

Obviously this is going to be critical if it goes to court. a court may or may not accept it as evidence.
Does the phonecall make clear who the 2 parties speaking are?
Was the other party aware the phonecall was being recorded?

and following the conversation, we submitted the offer and payed the fees to secure our new place.
Rash till you had it confirmed in writing

One week later we heard from our new agency that the old agency is refusing to give a reference. After speaking with our old agency about the problem, the said that they need a go from a landlady (a landlady? How many do you have?)who was abroad at the time (this was not mentioned as we were giving our notice).
When you were giving notice did you ask about references? If not, why would it be mentioned?

With already having a move in date to our new place, the old agency came back to us and changed the notice period to 2 months from the present date (after 2 weeks passed from our original agreement), explaining only that the landlady changed her mind.
How? Email? Letter?
Do you have in writing from them that
a) they'll accept 2 months notice and/or
b) this is a change from the previous agreement of 6 weeks?

Coming this Friday, we need to pay our last rent (Till 1st of December (our original notice).
By 'last rent' I assume you mean based on the 6 weeks notice?

But they are demanding to pay till 21st of December (the notice they changed it to).
Ah! Gotcha!

If we not gonna comply, they said that they gonna force us to pay extra 4 months (Till the date our fixed contract should have originally ended).
Hmmm. They can't have it both ways. If they agreed to the 2 months notice, they can pursue you for rent arrears if you fail to pay till the 2 months expires. They cannot pursue for more.

(Also both agency and landlord entered the property without our prior knowledge, one time each)
Irrelevant
We wanna know if it's in our right to stick to our guns only pay till original notice date (1st of December). Do we have a solid case, so it comes to the court of law to resolve the issue?

Yes it's your right to stick to your guns.

Your case is solid if the court accepts the phone recording. If they don't your case is flaky.

arogantiskas

Marktheshark wrote: »

The words you are looking for is "Accepted" or acceptance" .
If they have stated acceptance of the offer to terminate in reply to an e-mail you may have them, if not, they were just negotiations.

Have a good read.

Quote from an email:

"We have now spoken with the landlord they apologized for the delay in responding as explained they have been on holiday in the USA. They agreed for you to vacate the property with 8 weeks notice. Your tenancy will end on Monday the 12th of December. "

Later they altered the date twice.

G_M

arogantiskas wrote: »

Also agency changed they mind of the notice period several times, jumping from 12th of December, to 24th and 21st.. (all in an email)

does not sem to accord with

Quote from an email:

"We have now spoken with the landlord they apologized for the delay in responding as explained they have been on holiday in the USA. They agreed for you to vacate the property with 8 weeks notice. Your tenancy will end on Monday the 12th of December. "

Best if you quote full details of what they've written.

I suspect this is an admin error if 8 weeks does not = 12th, so it clearly needs confirmation/clarification.

arogantiskas

G_M wrote: »

does not sem to accord with



Best if you quote full details of what they've written.

I suspect this is an admin error if 8 weeks does not = 12th, so it clearly needs confirmation/clarification.

8 FULL weeks = Monday the 12th from a following Monday after us giving our notice.

G_M

So what xactly is the issue now?

* they've confirmed you can end the tenancy on 12/12 following 8 weeks notice.
* you are not happy with this?
* you are unhappy about not basing the notice on 6 weeks?
* you are considering witholding 2 weeks rent (difference between 6 weeks and 8 weeks)?
* you are unhappy about them claiming they'll demand the tenancy goes to full term (12 months) if you withold 2 weeks rent?

Seems to me you are getting off reasonably lightly - they've agreed to let you surrender the tenancy early (they they not have to), and even 8 weeks is not unreasonable.

Some LLs would demand all agency fees paid + rent up till next tenant is in place.......

arogantiskas

To clarify all the dates:

1. We gave 6 notice (phone, email and letter) on the 13th of October, that would end our tenancy on the 24th of November. We were led to believe notice has been handed in as he requested it to be confirmed in writting and sent to them. Which we did. (Phone call recording and receipts from email and Signed for letter are available). Later that day, the Agency listed the property on the market with the date available from 25th of November. (Day after our original notice period would end. Screenshots to prove this.) We then submitted an offer for a new place.

2. Week later we found out they are withholding references for our new agency.

3. On 21st of October landlord came back from holiday and agreed for 8 weeks notice from Monday 17th of October ending on the Monday 12th of December.

4. We questioned why did they change the date from which they have received the notice. We found this unreasonable, but in our good faith we offered to extend an extra week from our original notice, making it 7 weeks ending 1st of December.

5. On the 24th of October they changed the notice to 2 months from 24th of October (11 days after we handed in our notice) ending 24th of December. (Stating the landlord has changed their mind).

6. Same day we expressed our frustrations of the notice being changed over and over and referred them back to our notice (13th of October) and their agreement after landlord has returned from holiday (ending 12th of December) and they once again (without any explanation) changed it to ending 21st of December. (Making it more than 2 months from the day we gave our notice the 13th of October).

7. On the 15th of November they threatened us if we didn't pay till the 21st of December, they would pursuit for the remainder of the months of the 12 month fixed term agreement.


Things to note:

A. They did not provide the service that was promised with the outstanding works not being carried out and rendering a portion of the property unusable, damp and moldy. Stress and aggravation and disruption to our lives with chasing up problems that are not being dealt with. Quite a few instances of arranging and taking time of work for surveyors to come around and quote for work that has still not been carried out to this date. (Quote from the agreement about landlords obligations: "To allow the Tenant to quietly possess and enjoy the Property during the tenancy"). Lack of communication throughout the tenancy (see point D).

B. They offered us on several occasions to leave the property if we are not happy as in his words: "It would not stay long on the market anyway and they would find another tenant easily". (Since our notice we haven't had a single viewing for the property although a few similar properties have been rented out in our and neighboring buildings.)

C. We served our notice of 6 weeks on the 13th of October, while there are no clause in our agreement stating we need to serve notice for any particular amount of time.

D. Our agreement does state that nor landlord, nor agency can access the property without at least 24 hour written notice. Both landlord and agency broke this clause once each. (Does that not void the contract?)

E. Property is currently listed on the market stating it is available from 1st of December.

Guest101

Things to note:

They aren't obliged to give a reference- so your fee for the reference is the extra rent.

The rest is legally irrelevant

arogantiskas

Guest101 wrote: »

Things to note:

They aren't obliged to give a reference- so your fee for the reference is the extra rent.

The rest is legally irrelevant

They finally gave the reference on the 25th.

G_M

I hate when information comes tolight half-way down a thread, but
......

arogantiskas wrote: »

To clarify all the dates:

1. We gave 6 notice (phone, email and letter) on the 13th of October, that would end our tenancy on the 24th of November.
which? phone, email or letter?

Does the contract say phone or email is acceptable 'for serving notices'?

A letter on the 13th if first class would be delivered on 15th. A Saturday. I'm not sure but suspect that means 'served' on Monday 17th . Certainly 15th at earliest.

Meaning the notice was invalid if it mentioned the 24th November AND assuming 6 weeks was acceptable.

However if email was an acceptable means of service that might be different.

We were led to believe notice has been handed in as he requested it to be confirmed in writting and sent to them.
This implies the notice was NOT accepted but needed to be served in writing.
Which we did. (Phone call recording and receipts from email and Signed for letter are available).
So on what date was this next letter sent? 1st class? Date of service? Date given for exiry of notice?
Later that day, the Agency listed the property on the market with the date available from 25th of November. (Day after our original notice period would end. Screenshots to prove this.) We then submitted an offer for a new place.
Advertising a property does not in anyway affect whether a contract has ended or is due to end.

2. Week later we found out they are withholding references for our new agency.
There's no legal obligation to provide references unless you have contracted for them to do so. Did you? What was the cost and when did you pay?

3. On 21st of October landlord came back from holiday and agreed for 8 weeks notice from Monday 17th of October ending on the Monday 12th of December.
Ah! As I suggested above. Your notice letter was served on them on 17th.

4. We questioned why did they change the date from which they have received the notice.
As above
We found this unreasonable, but in our good faith we offered to extend an extra week from our original notice, making it 7 weeks ending 1st of December.
So you requested a change to 1st December for the Early Surrender to apply. Did the LL or agent respond? Agree? Refuse? Not respond?

Seems like negotiations are ongoing on agreement over the Early Surrender.

5. On the 24th of October they changed the notice to 2 months from 24th of October (11 days after we handed in our notice) ending 24th of December. (Stating the landlord has changed their mind).
As have you. You requested initially 6 weeks, giving an invalid expiry date, and then 7 weeks. Neither were agreed.

Negotiations continue.


6. Same day we expressed our frustrations of the notice being changed over and over
that's what happens in negotiations
and referred them back to our notice (13th of October) and their agreement after landlord has returned from holiday (ending 12th of December)
which you had declined, by requesting a change to 7 weeks notice.

and they once again (without any explanation) changed it to ending 21st of December. (Making it more than 2 months from the day we gave our notice the 13th of October).
As explained, I question whether you in fact served notice on 13th Oct. You had a telaphone/email exchange to discuss, and sent a letter on that date which would have arrived (been served) several day later.

7. On the 15th of November they threatened us if we didn't pay till the 21st of December, they would pursuit for the remainder of the months of the 12 month fixed term agreement.
So they got fed up with the negotiations over an end date for the tenancy, and gave you an ultimatum:
agree a date of 21 December for the Early Surrender or we will withdraw from any discussions about an Early Surrender (meaning the 12 month term will stand).


Things to note:

A. They did not provide the service that was promised with the outstanding works not being carried out and rendering a portion of the property unusable, damp and moldy.
Irrelevant to the issue of Early Surrender. Ignore.

Stress and aggravation and disruption to our lives with chasing up problems that are not being dealt with. Quite a few instances of arranging and taking time of work for surveyors to come around and quote for work that has still not been carried out to this date.
Irrelevant to the issue of Early Surrender. Ignore.

(Quote from the agreement about landlords obligations: "To allow the Tenant to quietly possess and enjoy the Property during the tenancy"). Lack of communication throughout the tenancy (see point D).
Irrelevant to the issue of Early Surrender. Ignore.

B. They offered us on several occasions to leave the property if we are not happy as in his words: "It would not stay long on the market anyway and they would find another tenant easily". (Since our notice we haven't had a single viewing for the property although a few similar properties have been rented out in our and neighboring buildings.)
Probobly because Surrender date has not been agreed.

C. We served our notice of 6 weeks on the 13th of October (errr 17th?), while there are no clause in our agreement stating we need to serve notice for any particular amount of time.
Indeed. The agreement states (as I understand it) that you must pay rent for 12 months. There is no right for either you or the landlord to end the tenancy earlier, hence no notice period is mentioned.

D. Our agreement does state that [STRIKE]nor[/STRIKE]neither landlord, nor agency can access the property without at least 24 hour written notice. Both landlord and agency broke this clause once each. (Does that not void the contract?)
No.

E. Property is currently listed on the market stating it is available from 1st of December.

That does not have any legal bearing on the date the tenancy will end.

It seems pretty clear that you and the landlord.agent have yet to agree a date for the Early Surrender.

The LL is under no obligation to agree at all.

If you want to leave before the 12 months is up, you need to either agree to the 21st (their current offer) and get it confirmed in writing, or re-open negotiations and get agreement to another date and get that confirmed in writing,