UK CPM ignored appeal by hire car driver

PCN_refused

Hello

I have read extensively the threads on this forum and at pepipoo for advice and PPC past cases. However, I could do with a word from the experts as I was unable to find a past case that vaguely matched my circumstances. If there is then please just reply with a link where I can read further details.

So here is the story so far (apologies for including a fair bit of detail but I don't expect you can mind-read the details I have not provided). Please let me know if you need to see copies of any correspondence.

In November 2015 I had just started a new work contract at a town in England new to me when, at the end of a very long first day, I went to the town centre to pick up a take-away meal. A work colleague, who had started there a short while earlier, suggest to park at a car park off one of the main streets as parking in the centre could be tricky at times.

That night (it was around 21:00 when I got there) the weather was horrendous (stormy, rain). So once in the car park I pulled up the hood of my jacket and dashed for the take-away. I did not stop looking for any signs or notices as I did not expect there to be any. I returned about 20 minutes later and went off to my accommodation.

At the time I was driving a hire car from a national car hire company (I have never owned a car and thus also have no past experience of parking issues).


In January 2016, I received an ANPR-based PCN from UK CPM regarding that evening in November. I was most surprised as I had no idea that the car park I had used was private and ANPR controlled. It turned out that it was for customers of a few businesses in a building complex nearby, not a shopping centre or other obvious place of retail (at least not obvious if driving around a dark wet town for the first time). If there were any signs I can only assume that I failed to notice them for the rain and darkness (and the wee car I was driving was not perfect for wet and dark conditions).
If I had any notion that this was a private car park, I would have parked elsewhere. After all, is was late at night and there were parking bays in the street. I had only gone to the car park as my colleague had suggested it. He was obviously not aware of the parking restrictions there either.

I started looking online for advice and found an appeal letter example on the ParkingCowboys website. I sent a customised version to UK CPM by mail (see copy at end of this post). As I thought it essential to obtain a "Proof of Delivery" and they were providing a PO address for replies that could not be used for Proof of Delivery items, I used the registered company address stated on their website on my envelope (UK Car Park Management Ltd, 19 New Road, Brighton, BN1 1UF). The letter actually showed the PO address (Payments & Collections, UK-CPM, PO Box 3114, Lancing, BN15 5BR).

My appeal letter was registered by RoyalMail as delivered a day or so before the appeals deadline (early February). Then I heard nothing for a long while and thought I had put them off taking this any further. I was wrong.

I wondered how the PPC had found out my address as I had been driving a hire car. I asked the car hire firm (I continued to hire from them for several more months) about any correspondence they had from a PPC but the said they had not had any. In early March I received a letter from the head office of the car hire firm with copies of the PCN they had been issued with, copies of my contract with them and other items they had sent to the PPC. It thus turned out that the head office had been dealing with the PPC but never told their local office about this. Not a problem in any case, they were just acting as required under PoFA to get off the hook as vehicle keepers. All fine by me, as this ensured that all further claims etc. went straight to me.

Again, nothing further happened for more than two months and I thought it was all over.
Then, in mid May I received the first letter from "DRP Debt Recovery Plus".
I read up more on the matter as this obviously not going away. At this stage I found the sample letter by Edna Basher regarding uncompliant Notice to Hirer (forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059) and sent this in customised form to the PPC. They were clearly in breach of PoFA rules with respect to hire car drivers as they had failed to issue me with a copy of the required documents (which I did receive from the car hire company). I also mentioned that I had had no response at all to the appeal I had sent in good time back in January.

UK CPM replied saying that my letter (the one I had just sent) had been received more than 28 days after the PCN was issued and could thus not be considered. This was a pre-printed and unsigned standard letter not making any reference to what I had written. It suggest that I could contact theIAS under "Non-Standard Appeals Service" within 21 days of this letter but did not provide an appeal reference number.

I read up the IAS rules and the posts on this forum that it would be a bad idea to engage with them. So I wrote back to the PPC that by the IAS own rules I can't engage their services as these are only available once a appeal to the PPC has run its course. However, as the PPC failed to acknowledge or act upon the appeal I had sent months earlier I was unable to use the IAS.

The reply from the PPC was the same standard letter I had received previously to the effect that they are unable to process my appeal as it was outside the permitted time-frame. Thanks to all the information on this and other forums I was not too worried at this stage.
As expected, there was another threatening letter from DRPL, which I ignored.

In mid August a new (well, not really) party entered the scene: Gladstone Solicitors. I have now read plenty about them here, so no need to elaborate too much. I ignored the letter as it was not a Letter Before Claim.

The LBC arrived a couple of days ago. As seems usual, one week after the letter's date. So I have just under a week left to respond now. In the first instance, I will acknowledge receipt of the letter to gain an extra 14 days for a further reply, as suggested on this forum. Also, I won't bother with a Proof of Delivery as I have read that a Proof of Posting is sufficient evidence.

Just another detail to mention: because of the long delays between "events" and me moving back to Scotland since this all started, I have been unable to re-visit the car park and check what exactly the signage etc. looks like. It so happens that I may be heading back to the same town early next week, so I may be able to check now - even though it could have changed in the last twelve months.

Finally, I have not yet complained to the landowner. I am not sure how to put it really given that I was not a customer of any of their businesses - just someone not noticing the signs in adverse weather conditions.

Having done a lot more reading up on the subject today I now have a few specific questions to the experts here.

1. My home address (and that where the PPC sent all correspondence) is in Scotland whereas the alleged parking offence took place in England. Does this matter at all ? I assume that it is still English law that applies.

2. Does the PPC have any chance of winning a case in court (should it go that far) given that they:
- failed to acknowledge receipt or act upon my initial appeal;
- failed to follow PoFA rules on the documents to be sent with a PCN to a hire car driver ?

3. Would the PPC have any valid claim against me for not sending my initial appeal to the exact address stated on the PCN ? I would expect that the registered company address is as valid as any other for that same company.

4. I have found a recent case at pepipoo (forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108556&st=0&p=1224254&#entry12%20%2024254) with the exact same letter from Gladstone Solicitors with responding letters provided by "Gan". Should I just follow what was advised in that thread or should I take any other action given the above history and circumstances (hire car, ignored appeal, failure to comply with PoFA)?

Many thanks in advance for any advice. I know that everyone here is doing this in their spare time and I hope I have not missed a similar case that I could have used for guidance.

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COPY OF INITIAL APPEAL LETTER

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xx January 2016

Without prejudice, except as to costs
Parking Charge Notice number xx

Dear Sir or Madam

This letter is a formal challenge to the issue of your Parking Charge Notice.

On xx January 2016 I was not the registered keeper of the vehicle bearing registration number xxxxxxxx but I was the driver.

Before I decide how to deal with your Parking Charge Notice, I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter.

I should be grateful for specific answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

I dispute your claim for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level.

1. Your parking charge amount claim
Please explain on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum

2. Your loss
If it is your case that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages; please give me a full breakdown of the actual losses which evidences that this parking charge is a true reflection of the damages caused solely by the alleged parking contravention.

3. Your status – the creditor
Your Parking Charge Notice simply mentions UK Car Park management Ltd. Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this £100 parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

4. Ownership of premises
Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.

5. Contractual Authority
Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder that provides the necessary contractual written authority for the issue and enforcement of your Parking Charge Notice.

6. Signage
If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.
Please provide evidence that any such signs are clearly readable by a driver seated in a small car in the dark and in very rainy conditions as were present on the evening of xx January 2016.

7. Evidence of location
The photographs you included on the Notice to Keeper do not show any of the surrounding area that would clearly identify the location you state on the notice. Please provide evidence that prove that the photographs were not taken anywhere else.

8. Summary
I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and as there are no ‘exceptional circumstances’ your comprehensive reply within 35 days. I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I deal with your Parking Charge Notice.

If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then please ensure that you enclose all the required information so that I may immediately refer the matter to the 'Independent Appeals Service' for their decision.

If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in your own Appeals Process, the 'Accredited Operator Scheme Code of Practice' of the 'Independent Parking Committee' or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Assurance Team, D16.

Please note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.

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END OF INITIAL APPEAL LETTER

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Note: Only now I realise that I referred in the above letter to a date in January 2016 not November 2015. But I doubt this makes any difference given that the letter was so far ignored.

Coupon-mad

Gladstone Solicitors. I have now read plenty about them here, so no need to elaborate too much. I ignored the letter as it was not a Letter Before Claim.

The LBC arrived a couple of days ago. As seems usual, one week after the letter's date. So I have just under a week left to respond now.

I replied (as SRM) to someone on pepipoo forum last night giving a couple of links to replies to any Gladstones LBCCC:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110039&st=0&p=1232933&#entry1232933

You should add a clear paragraph pointing out that you are outside of the jurisdiction of the English County courts and will NOT Be agreeing for the case to be 'heard on the papers' because it is not straightforward and if they want to try a claim they will have to come to Scotland. Make that very clear, saying that if they waste money on a claim you will immediately move for it to be struck out, by contesting jurisdiction.

My home address (and that where the PPC sent all correspondence) is in Scotland whereas the alleged parking offence took place in England. Does this matter at all ? I assume that it is still English law that applies.

As above, yes it helps you!

Does the PPC have any chance of winning a case in court (should it go that far) given that they:
- failed to acknowledge receipt or act upon my initial appeal;
- failed to follow PoFA rules on the documents to be sent with a PCN to a hire car driver ?

3. Would the PPC have any valid claim against me for not sending my initial appeal to the exact address stated on the PCN ? I would expect that the registered company address is as valid as any other for that same company.

There is always a 'chance' a PPC will win but Gladstones cases are flimsy and not prepared at all, they just rely on people paying up or sleepwalking into a CCJ by not responding.

The POFA only comes into play in a defence if you NEVER said who was driving.

HTH

PCN_refused

@ CouponMad

Looks like I was already on the right track for an appropriate response as you pointed to the thread I had been looking at earlier for "inspiration". I sent a reply to GS based on Gan's example letter 1 but did not see your reply here until much later (not sure what happened there). So I have not included the paragraph you suggested regarding "contesting jurisdiction". However, I am certain there will be another letter to GS in due course and I will make this clear then.

As I am shortly heading back to the place where it all happened, I can check for myself what the signage looks like. I can even take pictures almost exactly one year after the original event to prove how invisible the signs are in the dark and potentially with poor weather on top. That's me hoping that they have not been upgraded since.

Pity that PoFA (or rather the PPC's failure to follow it) won't help in my case. The car hire company supplied the driver details to the PPC to get off the hook (understandable and probably in my favour as they would, no doubt, just have paid the fine and invoiced me for it).

I will post an update here once I have heard from GS again.

Although I am not at the end yet with my own case, I can already say that reading of other users' experiences and successes in beating PPCs and of course the advice on "how the system works" is a massive help. This reminds me of a quote by Marie Curie:

"Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less."

Edna_Basher

PCN_refused wrote: »

The car hire company supplied the driver details to the PPC to get off the hook

Are you sure about that?

The car hire company couldn't know for sure who the driver was; all they could do is provide the PPC with details of the hirer (who may or may not have been the driver).

As long as the driver hasn't been identified, there's no reason why the PPC's failure to comply with POFA shouldn't help in your case.

PCN_refused

@ Edna Basher

Thanks for your comments (and your posts in other threads, which I have found very useful) but I don't think there any options here (naming the driver).

I identified myself as the driver in my first appeal to the PPC. This was based on advice I read online (it may have been this forum, I am not sure now) at the beginning of this year as it was the only sure way to get the car hire company out of the loop. As it happened, the PPC never acknowledged or otherwise acted upon the appeal even though I obtained a Proof of Delivery having posted it to their registered address (rather than the PO address they provided). So if they just binned it then they would not have my statement regarding being the driver.

However, the hire company sent me a copy of the documents they had sent to the PPC in reply to the PCN to the hire company. This states clearly "driver: <my name>". I guess this would be enough "evidence" for the PPC. As far as I understand it, because this having been a hire car, there really is no alternative but to admit that I was the driver. In any other situation, the registered keeper (the hire company) would become liable, pay the fine to get the PPC off and invoice me for their costs. Their TandC's make it quite clear that I would be liable for parking fines and charges, so not much space for movement here, I suspect.

As I gathered from other threads, there should be plenty of other points for defence, e.g. poor signage at the car park. So not having the "support" of PoFA may not be the end of the world (that's what I understand anyway, tell me if I am wrong).

Kind_Of_Irritated

Hi PCN_Refused - I am in the same boat as you as (in my naivety) I admitted I was the driver. I am depending on this (below) and I am ahead of you in the process and need to get my response to the court Claim Form in in the next few days.

As I gathered from other threads, there should be plenty of other points for defence, e.g. poor signage at the car park. So not having the "support" of PoFA may not be the end of the world (that's what I understand anyway, tell me if I am wrong).

At the moment one of my main points of argument is that there is no contract as nothing about parking appeared in any tenancy agreement of my son's. This contract issue would likely not apply to your case. Mine is concerning parking in my son's car park (while my permit was not in view.) But I have seen the contract/no contract/trespass issues discussed several times on these forums.

Time-consuming fighting all this nonsense, isn't it?:(

PCN_refused

@ Kind Of Irritated
Thanks for your comments. Yes, what riles me most is the time spent on all this stuff just because some opportunist gangsters found a way using the small claims court to extract money from unsuspecting consumers. Apart from that the exercise is actually quite interesting. If there was a way to claim compensation from them for more than five hours of my time at £19 I'd be much happier.
Good luck with your own efforts and keep us posted on developments.

Kind_Of_Irritated

Yes, you can see why so many people give up and pay up. What does this mean, btw?

If there was a way to claim compensation from them for more than five hours of my time at £19 I'd be much happier.

"compensation"? Would that be one's expenses asked of the judge if and when they decide in one's favour? I didn't know that was the limit. I already feel I've been researching for far more than 5 weeks!

pappa_golf

OP , invite gladstones to take you to court , YOUR local court in SCOOTLAND

PCN_refused

@ Kind Of Irritated

As you said yourself, most of us not trained in legal matters, will very likely have spent many many hours even just reading up on forums such as this one to get to grips with PPC and their shenanigans. On top of that comes more time in writing responses and maybe even going to court. Given that challenged PCNs rarely seem to be upheld in court because their issue was opportunistic at the least makes the whole matter a massive waste of people's time.

No court can give me back my time (and I really value it) but some monetary compensation, e.g. for ALL hours spent on this stuff (and I keep a detailed log) would be great - especially as the PPC would end up paying it. Actually, if a rule was introduced for PPCs having to pay a fine to the court for wasting their time on yet another case that should never have been brought that would be just as satisfying.

As to your question on the expenses limit:
I only go by what I read on the forums on this subject. See the following thread for some details.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71219800#29

Here is a detailed example for an expenses claim handed in at court:

parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/parkingeye-charged-costs-for.html

Note the comments in the next few posts that point out that time off work and time for working on the case could have been claimed as well.

Do any of the forum experts have any idea whether there IS a way to claim compensation (for ALL hours spent) from a PPC ? Something based on harassment maybe (threatening letters often over a long period of time) ?

PCN_refused

Hello

Two questions to more experienced PCN fighters:

1. Over the next wee while I will have to work away from home with no-one around to check my mail for letters from GS or the PPC. Is there any alternative to having friends checking my mail for me every couple of days to see whether any urgent deadlines to respond have arrived (such as pre-dated Letters Before Claim from GS) ?

2. I expect that GS will try to exploit the upcoming bank holiday period to maximum effect in reducing the amount of time recipients of their letters have to respond, i.e. typically letter date one week before actual date of delivery made worse by bank holidays delaying delivery even further.
Is there any recourse if I thus miss a deadline to respond to a LBC in time and end up getting dragged to court?

Not that I am too worried about going to court especially as I should be able to contest jurisdiction given my address in Scotland but I could do with killing off this nuisance matter sooner rather than later.