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g24 final notice
edwardsl1985
Posts: 10 Forumite
Hi guys been reading these forums a lot and this is my first post
I have a final notice from G24. I needed to leave my car for a few hours and I thought the car park I was using was free. I had never noticed the signs and used it regularly. Turns out there is a maximum stay of 180 minutes and I stayed for 348. They have an ANPR image if me entering and leaving. Their first letter was issued 01/08/16 and I sent the following response 11/08/16
Dear Sir/Madam
I am challenging your parking charge notice dated 21/07/16 on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.
1. The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.
2. The contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so my presence did not prevent the parking of other cars.
3. I have utilised the car park in question countless times and can recall no signage in the place where I parked or at the entrance to the area where I parked. The requirements are that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area. Therefore, I have not entered into a contract with you.
4. If signage does exist in this car park may I suggest reviewing its placement and visibility. The entrance is off of a busy four-way two lane intersection followed by a roundabout. If signage is not placed in a directly obvious manner it is liable to go unnoticed due to the attention being paid to the busy road.
5. Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.
6. Having examined your parking charge notice I believe it is a non compliant demand for payment because your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days of issue which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt.
7. I understand that a Parking Charge Notice must also include the following which is absent from the notice you have provided and therefore it may be invalid.
• The make of the vehicle
• A detailed location of the vehicle
• An identifier number of the warden who issued the ticket
• Any additional charges which may be levied.
• The B.P.A and A.O.S. logos
8. If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
• A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
• A copy of the contract which you allege I entered in to when I parked.
• Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
• A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where I was allegedly parked wrongly.
• A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
• A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
• A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
• Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
• A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.
• A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.
Please provide this information within 35 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
They replied 17/08/16 with a three page letter arguing against each point which I pretty much expected. The next part is where things got tricky. They did not provide me with a reference number to make an appeal to POPLA even though they state they are BPA accredited on their website. I did not want to run my phone bill up or pay for more registered post so I emailed them to the email on their website. This was what I sent on 10/09/16.
Dear G24
I am in receipt of your response to my appeal letter regarding the
above Parking Charge Notice. I am currently following the Independent
Appeals Service (IAS) procedure as you are registered with the IPC.
Your website clearly states that you are also governed by the BPA. As
such you should have provided me with a 10 digit verification code in
order to submit a POPLA appeal. As a BPA member you are obliged to
supply this information and as such you have delayed my appeal.
Please provide me with this information post haste so that I may
appeal your fine.
Yours faithfully
That same day I attempted to use the reference they provided me on their most up to date letter on the IAS appeals website and the reference was invalid. At this stage I was within the appeals window for both IAS and POPLA. I sent this follow up email the same day 10/09/16
Dear G24
The Parking Charge notice number listed above is not recognised on the
IAS website. I have entered it in full, minus the bracketed digits
and the long number prior to the forward slash and none have been
recognised.
Please supply me with a number which will be accepted by the IAS.
Thus far I have been unable to submit an appeal to POPLA due to the 10
digit verification code not being supplied (see previous email) and
now the appeal PCN number not registering with the website. I do hope
this is not an attempt to halt my appeal.
Please respond expeditiously.
Yours faithfully
They did not respond to either email. I decided to ring their office on 13th September as I was concerned about missing my window. The lady refused to provide me with a POPLA reference stating that they were BPA authorised but "thats not who we use for our appeals". I pointed out that it was for me to decide how to appeal not them and as they have BPA all over their website they should provide me with the reference for POPLA which they refused. I informed her that the reference they had given me did not work and she informed me that it was just the first 12 digits and i should ignore everything after the forward slash. I asked her what the purpose of these extra digits was and she could not tell me. I went away and attempted to appeal on the IAS website and the deadline had passed. I sent this final email an hour after the call to G24
Dear G24
You will be happy to know that due to your slow reply I have fallen
outside of the claim window with the IAS. I rang the only telephone
number provided on your letter and found it be an automated payment
line. I was forced to contact the office as a "customer" on 03700 427
2152. This call was made at 1159 am today and the call was apparently
recorded according to the voice over message.
The lady I spoke to advised me that the number I enter into the IAS
website is the 12 digit number prior to the forward slash. She could
not explain what the extra 4 digits or the brackets were for. I asked
if they were just "gibberish" designed to make it harder to lodge an
appeal with the IAS to which she replied they weren't gibberish but
she didn't know what these additional numbers and letters are.
I asked her for a reference to allow me to appeal via POPLA she stated
that your company make your appeals through the IAS not POPLA. I
advised her that the website clearly states that your company is a
member of the BPA and thus I should be given a reference in order to
make my complaint through them. She stated that G24 are a member of
BPA but don't use them for their appeals. I advise you that it is not
your place to decide how an appeal is made. If i choose to appeal it
is I that decides how and to whom I appeal.
I advised her that the lack of clarity in your parking charge
reference for the IAS and the refusal to provide me with the means to
appeal via POPLA are clear attempts to hinder my appeal. I attempted
to re-enter my information in the format in which she advised and was
met with a message that I had missed the deadline and now need to
return to the original company to make a "non-standard appeal".
Please may I be informed of how to carry out a non-standard appeal?
I will not be paying your fine as:
A) The signage is inadequate in that it is placed in such a manner as
to be discreet and go unnoticed by drivers. I have photographic
evidence of this.
The charge amount does not represent a fair amount of loss felt by
the companies in this car park. There were plenty of available spaces
and the car park is a non pay and display car park. No financial
burden or loss was caused by my staying beyond the parking deadline.
C) G24 have been intentionally unclear in their correspondence by
providing an inaccurate Parking Charge Notice number thus hindering my
appeal.
D) As a member of the BPA you are obliged to provide me the means in
which to appeal via POPLA. This request has been refused on a
recorded phone call. I am currently still within the time frame to
lodge an appeal but have been unable to do so due to this refusal by
your company.
As per my previous two emails, which have to date gone unanswered, I
request that you respond in a timely manner.I look forward to your
response with instructions on submitting a non-standard appeal.
Yours faithfully
That was 13/09/16 and I received a final notice letter 12/10/16 that Ive ignored due to other commitments. The overleaf says that I can send them another letter if there were mitigating circumstances as to why I have not appealed earlier, however they also say in the letter after 28 days they will pass it on to a debt collection firm so I feel like Ive missed the window to send them another letter.
What should I do at this stage?Any advise greatly appreciated. Sorry the post is so long also.
Thanks
Lee
I have a final notice from G24. I needed to leave my car for a few hours and I thought the car park I was using was free. I had never noticed the signs and used it regularly. Turns out there is a maximum stay of 180 minutes and I stayed for 348. They have an ANPR image if me entering and leaving. Their first letter was issued 01/08/16 and I sent the following response 11/08/16
Dear Sir/Madam
I am challenging your parking charge notice dated 21/07/16 on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.
1. The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.
2. The contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so my presence did not prevent the parking of other cars.
3. I have utilised the car park in question countless times and can recall no signage in the place where I parked or at the entrance to the area where I parked. The requirements are that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area. Therefore, I have not entered into a contract with you.
4. If signage does exist in this car park may I suggest reviewing its placement and visibility. The entrance is off of a busy four-way two lane intersection followed by a roundabout. If signage is not placed in a directly obvious manner it is liable to go unnoticed due to the attention being paid to the busy road.
5. Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.
6. Having examined your parking charge notice I believe it is a non compliant demand for payment because your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days of issue which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt.
7. I understand that a Parking Charge Notice must also include the following which is absent from the notice you have provided and therefore it may be invalid.
• The make of the vehicle
• A detailed location of the vehicle
• An identifier number of the warden who issued the ticket
• Any additional charges which may be levied.
• The B.P.A and A.O.S. logos
8. If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
• A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
• A copy of the contract which you allege I entered in to when I parked.
• Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
• A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where I was allegedly parked wrongly.
• A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
• A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
• A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
• Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
• A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.
• A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.
Please provide this information within 35 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
They replied 17/08/16 with a three page letter arguing against each point which I pretty much expected. The next part is where things got tricky. They did not provide me with a reference number to make an appeal to POPLA even though they state they are BPA accredited on their website. I did not want to run my phone bill up or pay for more registered post so I emailed them to the email on their website. This was what I sent on 10/09/16.
Dear G24
I am in receipt of your response to my appeal letter regarding the
above Parking Charge Notice. I am currently following the Independent
Appeals Service (IAS) procedure as you are registered with the IPC.
Your website clearly states that you are also governed by the BPA. As
such you should have provided me with a 10 digit verification code in
order to submit a POPLA appeal. As a BPA member you are obliged to
supply this information and as such you have delayed my appeal.
Please provide me with this information post haste so that I may
appeal your fine.
Yours faithfully
That same day I attempted to use the reference they provided me on their most up to date letter on the IAS appeals website and the reference was invalid. At this stage I was within the appeals window for both IAS and POPLA. I sent this follow up email the same day 10/09/16
Dear G24
The Parking Charge notice number listed above is not recognised on the
IAS website. I have entered it in full, minus the bracketed digits
and the long number prior to the forward slash and none have been
recognised.
Please supply me with a number which will be accepted by the IAS.
Thus far I have been unable to submit an appeal to POPLA due to the 10
digit verification code not being supplied (see previous email) and
now the appeal PCN number not registering with the website. I do hope
this is not an attempt to halt my appeal.
Please respond expeditiously.
Yours faithfully
They did not respond to either email. I decided to ring their office on 13th September as I was concerned about missing my window. The lady refused to provide me with a POPLA reference stating that they were BPA authorised but "thats not who we use for our appeals". I pointed out that it was for me to decide how to appeal not them and as they have BPA all over their website they should provide me with the reference for POPLA which they refused. I informed her that the reference they had given me did not work and she informed me that it was just the first 12 digits and i should ignore everything after the forward slash. I asked her what the purpose of these extra digits was and she could not tell me. I went away and attempted to appeal on the IAS website and the deadline had passed. I sent this final email an hour after the call to G24
Dear G24
You will be happy to know that due to your slow reply I have fallen
outside of the claim window with the IAS. I rang the only telephone
number provided on your letter and found it be an automated payment
line. I was forced to contact the office as a "customer" on 03700 427
2152. This call was made at 1159 am today and the call was apparently
recorded according to the voice over message.
The lady I spoke to advised me that the number I enter into the IAS
website is the 12 digit number prior to the forward slash. She could
not explain what the extra 4 digits or the brackets were for. I asked
if they were just "gibberish" designed to make it harder to lodge an
appeal with the IAS to which she replied they weren't gibberish but
she didn't know what these additional numbers and letters are.
I asked her for a reference to allow me to appeal via POPLA she stated
that your company make your appeals through the IAS not POPLA. I
advised her that the website clearly states that your company is a
member of the BPA and thus I should be given a reference in order to
make my complaint through them. She stated that G24 are a member of
BPA but don't use them for their appeals. I advise you that it is not
your place to decide how an appeal is made. If i choose to appeal it
is I that decides how and to whom I appeal.
I advised her that the lack of clarity in your parking charge
reference for the IAS and the refusal to provide me with the means to
appeal via POPLA are clear attempts to hinder my appeal. I attempted
to re-enter my information in the format in which she advised and was
met with a message that I had missed the deadline and now need to
return to the original company to make a "non-standard appeal".
Please may I be informed of how to carry out a non-standard appeal?
I will not be paying your fine as:
A) The signage is inadequate in that it is placed in such a manner as
to be discreet and go unnoticed by drivers. I have photographic
evidence of this.
The charge amount does not represent a fair amount of loss felt bythe companies in this car park. There were plenty of available spaces
and the car park is a non pay and display car park. No financial
burden or loss was caused by my staying beyond the parking deadline.
C) G24 have been intentionally unclear in their correspondence by
providing an inaccurate Parking Charge Notice number thus hindering my
appeal.
D) As a member of the BPA you are obliged to provide me the means in
which to appeal via POPLA. This request has been refused on a
recorded phone call. I am currently still within the time frame to
lodge an appeal but have been unable to do so due to this refusal by
your company.
As per my previous two emails, which have to date gone unanswered, I
request that you respond in a timely manner.I look forward to your
response with instructions on submitting a non-standard appeal.
Yours faithfully
That was 13/09/16 and I received a final notice letter 12/10/16 that Ive ignored due to other commitments. The overleaf says that I can send them another letter if there were mitigating circumstances as to why I have not appealed earlier, however they also say in the letter after 28 days they will pass it on to a debt collection firm so I feel like Ive missed the window to send them another letter.
What should I do at this stage?Any advise greatly appreciated. Sorry the post is so long also.
Thanks
Lee
0
Comments
-
its all irrelevant , as they do not use the BPA or POPLA for their code of practice or appeals as they correctly told you
they are IPC members and use the IPC CoP and the IAS for appeals, which is a kangaroo court
as its with debt collectors , you should now ignore for 6 years UNLESS you get an official LBC or an OFFICIAL MCOL in the post
debt collectors are powerless, so read post #4 of the newbies sticky thread and ignore
post #1 of that sticky thread tells you all about the IPC and IAS etc , just ignore anything to do with the BPA or POPLA with IPC members like G240 -
Hello,
I'm pretty much going through the same process as described above. I've sent my initial dispute letter ( copy and pasted via the forums ) and received the G24 rejection as expected. I too haven't received a POPLA ref number and don't wish to go through the IAS as it's rubbish. Am I right in thinking I should just ignore the 6 years of debt collectors letters unless I get an LBC or MCOL?
Apologies for hijacking the post.0 -
Hello,
I'm pretty much going through the same process as described above. I've sent my initial dispute letter ( copy and pasted via the forums ) and received the G24 rejection as expected. I too haven't received a POPLA ref number and don't wish to go through the IAS as it's rubbish. Am I right in thinking I should just ignore the 6 years of debt collectors letters unless I get an LBC or MCOL?
Apologies for hijacking the post.
Why hijack this thread when its just as easy and free to start your own thread. Help will then be available0 -
You've not been reading particularly closely then, because if you had you'd know:edwardsl1985 wrote: »Hi guys been reading these forums a lot and this is my first post
I have a final notice from G24.
...
What should I do at this stage?Any advise greatly appreciated. Sorry the post is so long also.
Thanks
Lee
a) NEVER EVER post your reg number.
b) NEVER EVER add your PCN number to a post
c) NEVER EVER post your real name
d) NEVER EVER EVER IDENTIFY THE DRIVER!
You've done all of the above - perhaps most critically item d). You've basically handed them the ability to take you to court as the driver.
Luckily, it's only G24 and they don't do court as a rule, so you're in ignore mode as you've been told.0 -
Did you honestly expect this tin pot organisation to read your magnum opus?
You are overcomplicating the issue, reading too much, and not understanding enough, and have left things far too late anyway.
However, you could ask them for a v.a.t. invoice "in order that you can consider your options". If they fail to deliver you could report them to the tax evasion hotline.
In any event, they will probably have put you down as "too difficult" and look for easier targets.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
To the OP, stop all this 'responding pointlessly to G24' malarky.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5558570
Already covered yesterday in that thread that appeals are pointless (that was in Scotland but G24 are just as pointless in England). Thank your lucky stars you 'missed' the IAS chance because you would have wasted even more time and then worried even more and felt on the back foot WHEN you lost that (perceived by many) 'kangaroo court' stage.
Nononono!They did not respond to either email. I decided to ring their office on 13th September as I was concerned about missing my window.
Just ignore the threatograms.
Come back if you are the recipient of G24's first ever county court claim and we'll assist with a defence; should be a laugh. Won't happen.
Complain to Mrs May and your MP, as is shown in the thread we have about that fight back stance. Tell them how this rip-off has angered and upset you.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
no apologies needed. tell me more about yours0
-
ive edited the post and removed the identifying facts. also yea i admitted i was driving which was obviously a bonehead move0
-
edwardsl1985 wrote: »ive edited the post and removed the identifying facts. also yea i admitted i was driving which was obviously a bonehead move
Doesn't matter. G24 threads light up the forum with mirth. I assume you popped 'G24' into the search box and found out that no-one takes them seriously?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
yea i have seen that they have never taken anyone to court. However I also have a friend that has been recently taken to court by a similar company and thought maybe its a change in times and they were starting to0
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