On a zero hours contract and told boss are unavailable, is this a problem?

ohreally

cuboid wrote: »

How about myself continuing to make myself unavailable though? I have done it now for 3 weeks, as soon as I get on the NEA Programme am planning to make myself available.


My boss wants me in for a 'chat' about Performance next week, but not about my unavailability. Is the key to just not sign anything ?

Rather than being manipulative, why not focus you energy on getting a better job with pay and conditions to suit?

sangie595

ohreally wrote: »

Didn't your employment lawyer establish your employment status before giving you advice/ opinion?

There's always an awful lot of lawyers around here when people don't agree with what they are being told.

sangie595

OP, I have no idea what kind of scheme you are attempting to dream up here - it sounds almost as thought you are attempting to deliberately engineer a claim of unfair dismissal.

But setting aside status for now, you now disclose that you work for a language facility. So there will be times when your skill is not required, and others when it is. That explains the scrappy hours. There won't be a tribunal in the country, regardless of your status, who won't understand that your skulls are only required when they are require, so erratic working of this nature is one of the few best suited to zero hours contracts. It is exactly what zero hours contracts were originally intended to be for!

Now as to status. Why are you fixated on being an employee? Because it doesn't change much. It doesn't entitle you to working hours if there aren't any. It doesn't change the fact that for most of your time with this company you haven't actually had any hours and you haven't been paid for anything. The one thing it does change is, however, that you MUST go to work when your employer tells you to, and since you are refusing to, they have grounds to dismiss you - if, as you kept claiming, you are an employee.

So if you have the right to refuse hours, which is what you wish to do, then you must be a zero hours worker, not an employee. As a result the employer is absolutely entitled to dispense with your services at any time AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CLAIM UNFAIR DISMISSAL.

You simply cannot have it both ways, yet that is what you appear to want.

As far as it goes, given this new information, it would be my opinion that IF this went to a tribunal ( goodness knows what for though - you don't appear to have any cause!,) you would almost certainly be deemed a zero hours worker. This is based on the fact that the contract has operated in this form, with a number of years were there had been no work at all. To be a contract of employment, as opposed to a contract for services rendered, there needs to be a transaction - you attend work and then get paid for it; and there needs to be entitlements (such as paid holiday etc). So even someone off on long term such would need to account for their absence from work, and would accrue leave. You have done none of these things. You didn't need to account for your absence from work because you didn't have any work to do, and you didn't accrue holiday for your service.

So there is no "key". As others have said, if you want a better job, nobody can fault you on that point, so go for it. But if your boss is annoyed that you aren't available, whatever it is called, then that's tough - on him and you! He can be as annoyed as he wants, and he doesn't have to give you work. And you can be as available as you want or not.

I really don't see what your issue here is. If you don't wish to work there, and you clearly don't, simply stop horsing around with games and tell him you aren't available and that is an end to it.

cuboid_2

ohreally wrote: »

Didn't your employment lawyer establish your employment status before giving you advice/ opinion?

ACAS said that if I was an 'employee' which some zero hr contracts are then there's a possibility. It's a case of establishing that.

cuboid_2

Undervalued wrote: »

Exactly.

Debating the difference between worker and employee is totally irrelevant unless the extra "rights" are actually useful.

OP, you need to address this point first. As Guest says, in your situation what tangible benefit would you get from establishing employee status?

Sue them for money of course. I want to leave anyway. Also, they are an awful company and it would give me satisfaction.

cuboid_2

sangie595 wrote: »

OP, I have no idea what kind of scheme you are attempting to dream up here - it sounds almost as thought you are attempting to deliberately engineer a claim of unfair dismissal.

But setting aside status for now, you now disclose that you work for a language facility. So there will be times when your skill is not required, and others when it is. That explains the scrappy hours. There won't be a tribunal in the country, regardless of your status, who won't understand that your skulls are only required when they are require, so erratic working of this nature is one of the few best suited to zero hours contracts. It is exactly what zero hours contracts were originally intended to be for!

Now as to status. Why are you fixated on being an employee? Because it doesn't change much. It doesn't entitle you to working hours if there aren't any. It doesn't change the fact that for most of your time with this company you haven't actually had any hours and you haven't been paid for anything. The one thing it does change is, however, that you MUST go to work when your employer tells you to, and since you are refusing to, they have grounds to dismiss you - if, as you kept claiming, you are an employee.

So if you have the right to refuse hours, which is what you wish to do, then you must be a zero hours worker, not an employee. As a result the employer is absolutely entitled to dispense with your services at any time AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CLAIM UNFAIR DISMISSAL.

You simply cannot have it both ways, yet that is what you appear to want.

As far as it goes, given this new information, it would be my opinion that IF this went to a tribunal ( goodness knows what for though - you don't appear to have any cause!,) you would almost certainly be deemed a zero hours worker. This is based on the fact that the contract has operated in this form, with a number of years were there had been no work at all. To be a contract of employment, as opposed to a contract for services rendered, there needs to be a transaction - you attend work and then get paid for it; and there needs to be entitlements (such as paid holiday etc). So even someone off on long term such would need to account for their absence from work, and would accrue leave. You have done none of these things. You didn't need to account for your absence from work because you didn't have any work to do, and you didn't accrue holiday for your service.




So there is no "key". As others have said, if you want a better job, nobody can fault you on that point, so go for it. But if your boss is annoyed that you aren't available, whatever it is called, then that's tough - on him and you! He can be as annoyed as he wants, and he doesn't have to give you work. And you can be as available as you want or not.

I really don't see what your issue here is. If you don't wish to work there, and you clearly don't, simply stop horsing around with games and tell him you aren't available and that is an end to it.

We get holiday pay. It is worked out by the number of hrs you work and say 10% of what you work can be taken as holiday pay. Does that mean I am an employee?


Clearly you guys are wrong that all zero hrs contracts mean you are a worker and not an employee if both ACAS and the lawyer through the GMB said so.

takman

cuboid wrote: »

Sue them for money of course. I want to leave anyway. Also, they are an awful company and it would give me satisfaction.

Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trolling?

So what if your an employee or a worker, don't you understand your employer WILL NOT NEED TO DISMISS YOU.

They will simply keep you on their books and OFFER YOU ZERO HOURS OF WORK as per your contract. You will have no work, get no pay but you can't sue them because they havnt dismissed you!.

You can't sue them for offering you the amount of hours in your contract (ZERO). If anyone tells you otherwise they are just as stupid as you!.

sangie595

cuboid wrote: »

We get holiday pay. It is worked out by the number of hrs you work and say 10% of what you work can be taken as holiday pay. Does that mean I am an employee?


Clearly you guys are wrong that all zero hrs contracts mean you are a worker and not an employee if both ACAS and the lawyer through the GMB said so.

All zero hours contracts ARE workers! But some employers make mistakes and they intend zero hour contracts but actually create other types of contracts.

No, just getting holiday does not mean you are an employee.

By your reckoning ACAS and the GMB are as stupid as you. ACAS I could believe. The GMB I do not.

But thank you for confirming that you are attempting to dream up some scheme to scam your employer. Whether they are a good employer or not is irrelevant - all you are seeking here is a payout to which you are not entitled. You'll find that the GMB won't help you with that because you have no case. And I won't help you either. They might be awful employers. It sounds like you are an awful employee. so you probably deserve each other.

andygb

It is time that they banned zero hours contracts in the UK, as they are nothing more than an opportunity for employers to exploit workers.
They banned ZHC's in New Zealand - I admire them doing that.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/09/can-uk-emulate-new-zealand-and-ban-zero-hours-contracts

cuboid_2

I don't care if they don't give me any hours. I have my other business ideas I am working on. But how about renewing the contract in January. If they fail to do that, surely there's a chance then of suing this appalling company. They fire and rehire everyone at New Year. Suits me, they keep me on the books and then eventually forget to renew my contract after a year then sue them.


I think how it will pan out is they want me to work whatever random crap they throw at me, so just refuse at the last moment if I have other work or commitments at that time and if I want to work and they need me then that's some extra cash for me so win win for both if I can work.