Solar panels, backwards running meter and NPower

MDGM

Hi all,

I'm writing this on behalf of my father, who is with NPower and installed solar panels ~2 years ago. Since then, his (non-smart) meter has been running backwards and is now showing about ~100 units lower than the original reading 2 years ago.

Throughout the past 2 years, NPower have been ignoring my father's meter readings and instead sending bills based on their estimated reading, which is now 4000 units higher than the first reading 2 years ago. We haven't been paying them because the reading is wrong, and NPower have been getting increasingly aggressive with their communications, resulting in a lot of anxiety for my 82y/o father these past 2 years.

They stonewalled all our attempts to get in touch with them about the problem, and even ignored their own consultant (Laurie Beck) who confirmed my father's meter readings 1 year ago, and continue to bill based on "estimated" (read: fictitious) readings.

We finally managed to coax NPower into a dialog by getting the local MP involved, and they are saying that in order to resolve the situation we must install a smart meter, wait 1 month, then back bill the past 2 years based on that month's reading (with a 25% discount for winter solar generation). If we don't, they say they will get the bailiffs in to install a smart meter at my father's expense. Otherwise, they say we must pay the existing bills based on their "estimated" readings.

What are our options with this situation? Do Npower have the right to ignore our current meter readings? Do they have the right to force us to have a smart meter? Can we expect any compensation for the anxiety my father experienced, as a result of NPower not entering into a dialog with us for 2 years?

Thanks all, we really appreciate the help.

Martyn1981

You mention supplying meter readings, but did you specifically report that the meter was running backwards?

If you've told them the meter was going backwards then it becomes their responsibility to replace it with a modern meter. I don't know specific policies, but I'm not sure if you 'have to' have a smart meter yet.

Whilst you are responsible for the leccy you imported and consumed, they have a responsibility to accurately meter your import, so again, if you told them, then you can flip the argument and say that they have to provide a correctly metered bill for you to pay. They may well drop it then?

If you didn't tell them the meter went backwards, then it gets stickier, and you should really be fair and pay up for what was consumed*. I don't think this should be based on 1 month as generation varies, and is of course less going into the winter, so your import will be higher now, than PV supported import in the summer. Perhaps they'll let you pay a small contribution now, with the final amount to be based on actual import over the next year (after the meter has been replaced).

*Though, repeated meter readings showing little to no import, or even negative import, should have been a clue.

BTW - it was just easier to say 'you', rather than 'your father' each time, plus you may have been involved at some point. Best of luck.

SammenForLivet2

Is there no back-stop installed at the property?

When did you first let Npower know about solar panels being installed? Whilst I appreciate that this has been of some inconvenience, I suggest what Npower have suggested is fair, based on the fact that you've not been willing to pay your bills.

jimjames

SammenForLivet2 wrote: »

Is there no back-stop installed at the property?

When did you first let Npower know about solar panels being installed? Whilst I appreciate that this has been of some inconvenience, I suggest what Npower have suggested is fair, based on the fact that you've not been willing to pay your bills.

I read the post and didn't come to the same conclusion that OP was unwilling to pay their bills. They have been trying to sort it and NPower have been unable to bill correctly and used estimates for 2 years. After dealing with Npower as a supplier I can fully understand the frustration that the OP has with them.

I understood there was a requirement to read a meter at least every 12 months. I also don't believe there is any requirement to let the energy supplier know that you have solar panels fitted.

Having said that, the panels must be generating at a very high level or the OP is using very little electricity to have the meter still backwards by such an amount after 2 years.

It may help Npower's systems if the OP runs something to get the meter back into positive territory so their billing can handle it.

MDGM wrote: »

Otherwise, they say we must pay the existing bills based on their "estimated" readings.

What are our options with this situation? Do Npower have the right to ignore our current meter readings? Do they have the right to force us to have a smart meter? Can we expect any compensation for the anxiety my father experienced, as a result of NPower not entering into a dialog with us for 2 years?

My understanding is that they shouldn't back bill beyond the point that you made them aware of the issue and that their incompetence in resolving it is not your fault. We had a problem with our gas meter where it was recorded on the supplier system as metric but was imperial. Despite meter readings being taken for over 15 years they didn't notice they'd got it wrong. But when they discovered they only billed from that point forward.

I'd suggest 2 things, I'd calculate what the bills would have been over the last 2 years based on previous consumption - the readings of 4000 may be reasonable. If they're not and you decide to go with the option of a smart meter and recalculated billing I would definitely advise to go for a full 12 months to see a pattern. If they use a month now then there will be very little generation and much higher consumption due to darker evenings and more appliance use so the calculation will overestimate how much you owe.

Cardew

MDGM wrote: »

Throughout the past 2 years, NPower have been ignoring my father's meter readings and instead sending bills based on their estimated reading, which is now 4000 units higher than the first reading 2 years ago.

The reason Npower ignored actual meter readings and substituted estimated readings is down to the 'all seeing, all knowing computer'!

Along with most companies, the accounts computer has an algorithm(claimed to have been written by a an ex-contributor on MSE) that predicts the estimated meter reading based on several factors. If the meter reading - even if taken by an official meter reader - is outside the tolerance that the computer 'thinks' is acceptable it rejects that reading and substitutes its estimated reading. This will be repeated again and again until intervention by a real live human.

Unfortunately these discrepancies are not routinely 'flagged up' to 'the human'; or if they are; they are ignored. This situation happens frequently in properties that have been left unoccupied for months.

Obviously in your case 'the human' should have investigated as soon as you brought the issue to their attention - but after all this is Npower!!

MDGM

Hi all,

Firstly thanks to everybody for your input, it is very much appreciated.

@Martyn1981, yes my father called up numerous times to give a meter reading that was lower than the previous one, and to tell them he has solar panels. I don't know exactly what was said during the calls but giving a meter reading that is lower than the previous one is pretty much the same as saying it's going backwards I would have thought?

We have absolutely no problem paying for the services we receive, it's just that NPower are billing us based on estimates that don't take the solar panels into account, and they did not make us aware that we needed to install a different meter to resolve the situation. When we tried to open a dialog with them we were stonewalled for 2 years until we got an MP involved, at which point we were made aware we need a different type of meter.

@jimjames thanks for your feedback and understanding. As you say, we are more than happy to pay, just as long as it is billed correctly. Unfortunately we can't run the meter up as we only have a month to resolve this situation - NPower are threatening to take us to court at our expense, then to send in bailiffs to change the meter.

I found figures online detailing the past 4 years of average monthly solar panel output, and I used them to figure out November is 59.9% lower on average than the rest of the year. So I have suggested when we recalculate the usage based on the next month, we increase the solar panel generation by that amount to take into account the time of year.

@Cardew I think you're right. That, combined with putting their head in the sand and wanting to grab as much cash out of us as possible... they even sent in their own meter reading consultant (Laurie Beck) and completely ignored their findings! It's crazy!

General Update

I've told NPower that we don't want a smart meter (their own website says their incompatible with PV). I said we will take a digital (non smart) meter and use our next months usage to calculate how much we should pay for the past 2 years of usage. Because it's winter, I used the following spreadsheet to work out how much lower PV production is in November compared to the rest of year average (answer is 59.5%). When calculating how much we owe, we'll increase the solar output by that amount.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WjhDVdrhzZapZQVyHXGNIuY9bLzzv6dgP1wg1UJTtmo/edit?usp=sharing

Finally, I invited them to offer us compensation for their repeated customer service failures. We tried to get in contact with them on at least 10 separate occasions about this problem and were stonewalled each time. It took our extraordinary action of getting an MP involved to finally coax NPower into a dialog...

I'll keep you updated...

Martyn1981

MDGM wrote: »

Hi all,

Firstly thanks to everybody for your input, it is very much appreciated.

@Martyn1981, yes my father called up numerous times to give a meter reading that was lower than the previous one, and to tell them he has solar panels. I don't know exactly what was said during the calls but giving a meter reading that is lower than the previous one is pretty much the same as saying it's going backwards I would have thought?

Hiya, even trying to play devil's advocate, I can't really see anything wrong with that paragraph. I'm a believer in 'what would a reasonable person conclude', and clearly (is clearly fair?) the conclusion would be 1. there's a problem with the meter, and 2. it's probably going backwards.

I also think it's fair to pay for leccy consumed, but if they've messed you around, then can they go back 2 years? Can they bill you without an accurate meter reading - I believe I recall that as customers we are owed a duty of care and that accurate (metered) billing is necessary.

If you post annual import before the PV, the PV system size and orientation, and the annual generation, then we may be able to take a guess at the figure.

My import has almost halved, from 3,000 down to just over 1,500, but I have a large E/W system which helps. Then again, my off-south shallow panels mean low generation (savings) in the winter months.

So there's no way to work out the real figure, other than waiting 1 year, but it may be possible to come up with a sensible guesstimate.

TBH, if his import is similar to mine, and 2 years may be 3,000kWh's total, then perhaps they should just let it slide as recompense for failing to sort it out sooner?

Cardew

MDGM wrote: »

Hi all,

Finally, I invited them to offer us compensation for their repeated customer service failures. We tried to get in contact with them on at least 10 separate occasions about this problem and were stonewalled each time. It took our extraordinary action of getting an MP involved to finally coax NPower into a dialog...

I'll keep you updated...

In complicated case like this, I would take them to the Small Claims court. It doesn't cost much and I doubt if Npower will fight the case and settle out of court.

Or

Get the media(Daily Mail) involved.

nPower

MDGM wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm writing this on behalf of my father, who is with NPower and installed solar panels ~2 years ago. Since then, his (non-smart) meter has been running backwards and is now showing about ~100 units lower than the original reading 2 years ago.

Throughout the past 2 years, NPower have been ignoring my father's meter readings and instead sending bills based on their estimated reading, which is now 4000 units higher than the first reading 2 years ago. We haven't been paying them because the reading is wrong, and NPower have been getting increasingly aggressive with their communications, resulting in a lot of anxiety for my 82y/o father these past 2 years.

They stonewalled all our attempts to get in touch with them about the problem, and even ignored their own consultant (Laurie Beck) who confirmed my father's meter readings 1 year ago, and continue to bill based on "estimated" (read: fictitious) readings.

We finally managed to coax NPower into a dialog by getting the local MP involved, and they are saying that in order to resolve the situation we must install a smart meter, wait 1 month, then back bill the past 2 years based on that month's reading (with a 25% discount for winter solar generation). If we don't, they say they will get the bailiffs in to install a smart meter at my father's expense. Otherwise, they say we must pay the existing bills based on their "estimated" readings.

What are our options with this situation? Do Npower have the right to ignore our current meter readings? Do they have the right to force us to have a smart meter? Can we expect any compensation for the anxiety my father experienced, as a result of NPower not entering into a dialog with us for 2 years?

Thanks all, we really appreciate the help.

Hi MDGM,

Thanks for getting in touch, this is disappointing to read.

If you're authorised on your father's account I'd like the opportunity to look into this for you.

Please email me at the address on my profile.

Thanks

Jade

Smodlet

OMG. We, too are with nPower, have been for four years now and, three and half years ago, we got solar panels. It was great fun watching the old meter go backwards and having an idea how much we were generating from how fast it spun... but I knew it couldn't last.

I called nPower, was shunted from pillar to post, can't remember how many depts. I spoke to, none of them had a clue. The closest I came was to someone who wanted to sell me solar panels. They could not seem to grasp that we already had them and they were free.

Eventually, I got through to one of the only two people in the whole of nPower with the knowledge to deal with my situation; Jane was on holiday (and has since left) so I had to deal with Paul, the rudest, most ignorant, patronising little **** ever to disgrace customer service, in NPower or out of it.

He threatened me with huge, estimated bills as, of course, if your meter is going backwards you must have tampered with it and be stealing electricity, there can be no other explanation. After several days of his abuse and the gods know how many phone calls, I demanded to speak to a manager. Several days after that, I actually was allowed to and she, after listening to the various phone calls between me and Paul, refunded my entire bill of £117. I can still remember the amount, the experience was so bad.

Ten days later, along came a very nice meter installer to give us a new, tiny, so low to the floor a contortionist would struggle to read it, digital meter. No more going backwards, no more idea of how much juice we are making but no inaccurate or estimated bills either.

That was the hardest I have ever had to work with nPower... I think they are getting better and they are certainly the cheapest for me, by a mile. HTH.

P.S. Hello, Cardew.

tunnel

Smodlet wrote: »

so I had to deal with Paul, the rudest, most ignorant, patronising little **** ever to disgrace customer service, in NPower or out of it.

Why can't I ever get THAT person, I would have had SO much fun