London Congestion Charge Scam (advice)

Blackyblue

I travelled down to London in my van for my first buisness trip on September 28th.
I was there for a few days and thought everything went ok, although as it was my first trip i did not make a great deal.

Since then i have made two more trips and on returning from my last trip i was met with a letter on my door step regarding a Dartford Crossing Charge.

Being from Scotland, i am completely dependent upon my Sat Nav and i did not even know where Dartford is, although i have since found out it is on the M25 crossing the Thames.

I was not too bothered about this as it was just a warning letter telling me if i dont pay within 28 days i will be fined, although in future now i know about it i must always pay by midnight, so i paid the crossing fee and i set up a Dart account so that in future the money will just come out of my bank whenever i make a Dart crossing. It will probably be a good few months however before i know when i am actually crossing this Dartford crossing.

I was not so pleased when a few days later i received a fine from London transport regarding me entering the Congestion charge area in central London, as this was not a warning letter but a demand for £65. A fine for non payment and evasion.

I phoned them up straight away and have been on the phone all day arguing with anyone that will argue with me about it, including MP's and London transport customer service representatives.

My argument is:
Me: I am from Scotland, in Scotland we dont have congestion charges therefor i was completely unaware of the congestion charge.

General response: But it is well sign posted, there is a great big "C" on the road and there are sign posts on the side of the road that tell you all the information you need to know about how much the charge is and how to pay it and when to pay it by.

Me: But this is a road safety breach

General response: why is it?

Me: Because there is a reason that at the dawn of road safety road signs were marked as symbols and on your driving test you are expected to explain to the examiner what the symbol represents as oppossed to just repeating to him what the symbol reads

General response: sorry im not with you

Me: well the reason is because you are not allowed to read while driving and anyone that is able to read a sign explaining in writing how much the charge is, how and when it can get paid, while driving a deadly weapon with mothers pushing prams across the road is a danger to road safety and should be fined for not keeping an eye on the road.
Signs are supposed to be marked with symbols

General response: I cant argue with that, but the congestion charges have been well documented.

Me: where? on the news? in the newspapers?

General response: exactly

Me: So you are telling me it is illegal for me not to watch the news or buy a newspaper?

General response: No

Me: So why then do you assume that the television and the newspaper is a legal way of informing people of new laws?

General response: It is your job as a courier to know these things

Me: How can i possibly know something i have not encountered? in Cardiff they might have a pollution charge i dont know about, but do you seriously think that everytime i travel to a new city i am going to think to type in to google polution charge just in the off chance they actually have one? why do you think i would do this with congestion charge?

General response: Because it is your job

Me: Can you show me something in the highway code where "C" means charge

General response: No, i cant because it is not in the highway code, but it does state in the highway code to keep an eye out for changes

Me: Yes, well as much as a person might try to keep their eye out for changes, what are they supposed to do if that new peace of information does not come in to contact with them? is this a crime?

General response: No

Me: So why am i being sent a fine?

General response: Because you entered a congestion charge area and did not pay on time

Me: Can i pay now?

General response: No

Me: Why?

General response: Because you only have until midnight on the day of travel to pay

Me: And how would i pay anyway?

General response: You can pay by internet or by phonecall, it tells you on the signs

Me: But what if i dont have access to the internet or cant make the phonecall while driving or have someother issue?

General response: It must be paid by midnight, you can find the details on our website

Me: Does the signs at the side of the road also contain your website address?

General response: What?

Me: Why is it when i crossed the Dart unknowingly i receieved a warning letter, yet with the Mayor of Londons office they just send me an immediate fine?

General response: Because we are a different department and this is our policy

Me: You are running a scam

General response: Sir, abuse will not be tolerated

Me: Goodbye



Anyone got any advice for when i make my appeal?

Fruitcake

We specialise in unfair private parking tickets here.

You would be better posting this on pepipoo.com after you have read the FAQs as they are the police and council ticket specialists there.

beamerguy

Blackyblue wrote: »

I travelled down to London in my van for my first buisness trip on September 28th.
I was there for a few days and thought everything went ok, although as it was my first trip i did not make a great deal.

Since then i have made two more trips and on returning from my last trip i was met with a letter on my door step regarding a Dartford Crossing Charge.

Being from Scotland, i am completely dependent upon my Sat Nav and i did not even know where Dartford is, although i have since found out it is on the M25 crossing the Thames.

I was not too bothered about this as it was just a warning letter telling me if i dont pay within 28 days i will be fined, although in future now i know about it i must always pay by midnight, so i paid the crossing fee and i set up a Dart account so that in future the money will just come out of my bank whenever i make a Dart crossing. It will probably be a good few months however before i know when i am actually crossing this Dartford crossing.

I was not so pleased when a few days later i received a fine from London transport regarding me entering the Congestion charge area in central London, as this was not a warning letter but a demand for £65. A fine for non payment and evasion.

I phoned them up straight away and have been on the phone all day arguing with anyone that will argue with me about it, including MP's and London transport customer service representatives.

My argument is:
Me: I am from Scotland, in Scotland we dont have congestion charges therefor i was completely unaware of the congestion charge.

General response: But it is well sign posted, there is a great big "C" on the road and there are sign posts on the side of the road that tell you all the information you need to know about how much the charge is and how to pay it and when to pay it by.

Me: But this is a road safety breach

General response: why is it?

Me: Because there is a reason that at the dawn of road safety road signs were marked as symbols and on your driving test you are expected to explain to the examiner what the symbol represents as oppossed to just repeating to him what the symbol reads

General response: sorry im not with you

Me: well the reason is because you are not allowed to read while driving and anyone that is able to read a sign explaining in writing how much the charge is, how and when it can get paid, while driving a deadly weapon with mothers pushing prams across the road is a danger to road safety and should be fined for not keeping an eye on the road.
Signs are supposed to be marked with symbols

General response: I cant argue with that, but the congestion charges have been well documented.

Me: where? on the news? in the newspapers?

General response: exactly

Me: So you are telling me it is illegal for me not to watch the news or buy a newspaper?

General response: No

Me: So why then do you assume that the television and the newspaper is a legal way of informing people of new laws?

General response: It is your job as a courier to know these things

Me: How can i possibly know something i have not encountered? in Cardiff they might have a pollution charge i dont know about, but do you seriously think that everytime i travel to a new city i am going to think to type in to google polution charge just in the off chance they actually have one? why do you think i would do this with congestion charge?

General response: Because it is your job

Me: Can you show me something in the highway code where "C" means charge

General response: No, i cant because it is not in the highway code, but it does state in the highway code to keep an eye out for changes

Me: Yes, well as much as a person might try to keep their eye out for changes, what are they supposed to do if that new peace of information does not come in to contact with them? is this a crime?

General response: No

Me: So why am i being sent a fine?

General response: Because you entered a congestion charge area and did not pay on time

Me: Can i pay now?

General response: No

Me: Why?

General response: Because you only have until midnight on the day of travel to pay

Me: And how would i pay anyway?

General response: You can pay by internet or by phonecall, it tells you on the signs

Me: But what if i dont have access to the internet or cant make the phonecall while driving or have someother issue?

General response: It must be paid by midnight, you can find the details on our website

Me: Does the signs at the side of the road also contain your website address?

General response: What?

Me: Why is it when i crossed the Dart unknowingly i receieved a warning letter, yet with the Mayor of Londons office they just send me an immediate fine?

General response: Because we are a different department and this is our policy

Me: You are running a scam

General response: Sir, abuse will not be tolerated

Me: Goodbye



Anyone got any advice for when i make my appeal?

No help can be given here ..... this forum is all about private parking, not the dart crossing.

Try peppipoo.com

fisherjim

I thought everyone knew about the London congestion charge, it has been going now for 13 years it was the bane of my life running a fleet of 19 vehicles around the area.

I share your frustration I did get four fines cancelled for not paying once because they had altered my vehicle's VRN back to a previous one for some unknown reason on my account.
They didn't admit to it but as a goodwill gesture blah blah blah!

Your protestations will go nowhere, unless you work for a foreign embassy, who just ignore the charges, tfl (who say they are owed £95m by them) are trying to take them all to an international court.

As some might say: Ignorantia juris non excusat, or you are stuffed!

The_Deep

It is hardly a scam, it is the law. I am surprised that anyone in the country is unaware of it. You must live in a vacuum.

The_Deep

unless you work for a foreign embassy, who just ignore the charges, tfl (who say they are owed £95m by them)


In my opinion, Foreign Embassies owe nothing. They regard it, rightly imo, as a tax, and Diplomats are exempt from host country taxes, (even v.a.t.).

fisherjim

The_Deep wrote: »

unless you work for a foreign embassy, who just ignore the charges, tfl (who say they are owed £95m by them)


In my opinion, Foreign Embassies owe nothing. They regard it, rightly imo, as a tax, and Diplomats are exempt from host country taxes, (even v.a.t.).

Can't say I disagree, the whole scheme is a tax I don't think it has cut congestion in the slightest.

Carthesis

fisherjim wrote: »

Can't say I disagree, the whole scheme is a tax I don't think it has cut congestion in the slightest.

It was never about congestion really - it was just another environmental tax by stealth. It's been around a long time (since 2003) when it was massively publicised and made the national news. There was also regular references to it in national news at London Mayoral elections. It *DOES* seem to have had an effect on improving air quality in central London however, although the actual delays due to congestion might well be just as bad.

I think you'll struggle to get away with this one, as it is, in fact, an actual law that it is payable. It is well sign-posted that congestion charges apply - even on the motorways well outside the M25 there are reminder signs about the Low Emission Zone and the Congestion Charges. Even if the signage doesn't contain the information, and i agree with your point about information on the signage - in this day and age it could be argued that something as long-established and signed as this could be found out about by checking up "London congestion charge" on your phone. It is - for reference - the VERY FIRST THING that comes up in a Google search auto-complete once you type "london c".

From the TfL Congestion Charge FAQ:

You can purchase a Congestion Charge at any time during the 64 consecutive Charging Days immediately before the Charging Day concerned and until midnight the next Charging Day.

They also offer AutoPayment, similarly to the DART account, so you just get the payment taken from your account when they detect you entering the zone:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/auto-pay?intcmp=2154#autopay

Johno100

I suppose one saving grace, at least the OP's van didn't fall foul of the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) or he'd have another hundred quid to find.

London is really turning into its own City State within the UK and nobody seems to be batting an eyelid.

StaffsSW

From my own experience with dealing with TFL and the C Charge, the legislation around it is widespreads and all encompassing. They will find a clause in it fit every single argument you try against them, and they are very quick to escalate it to the TEC and subsequently Newlyns or JBW bailiffs.

Unfortunately your reasoning in the Original Post may make sense to you, but when you appeal there are limited grounds you can use, and again these are laid out in the legislation that covers London Charging.

The only luck I have had with them is when a driver has paid the charge, but on the wrong registration due to characters being transposed (paid for ABC123, but vehicle was ACB123 for example - they can check if the reg that was paid for did enter the zone or not, and can cancel the charge at their discretion)
I've also had a few cancelled where the vehicle was on an Autopay account, but a system failure didn't collect the fee.

I honestly think you'll struggle on this one, but good luck!

DoaM

I've lived in Scotland for nearly 20 years ... I knew about the congestion charge, and I've never even needed to drive in London.

As per others, it's your own fault - even if it isn't.