Council Tax Disregard for SMI - post end of CB ESA

CIS

belinda1960 wrote: »

I fear I may be opening a can of worms !!

I personally have no doubt when looking at the legislation. As I say, I don't see any reason how they can apply a disregard (which requires an entitlement) where that entitlement is no longer possible (not even as an underlying one).

If anyone can provide a reasoned argument otherwise though I'm always willing to listen.

Craig

NeilCr

CIS wrote: »

I personally have no doubt when looking at the legislation. As I say, I don't see any reason how they can apply a disregard (which requires an entitlement) where that entitlement is no longer possible (not even as an underlying one).

If anyone can provide a reasoned argument otherwise though I'm always willing to listen.

Craig

I'd agree with you.

I've just looked at my local council's take on it. In the information they use the words entitled to with regards to the benefits. However, on the application form, they say they need to see proof that you are receiving the benefit. And my former council actually say in receipt of in the blurb

Not to say they are right (my council aren't great) but that's how I would see it

CIS

NeilCr wrote: »

I'd agree with you.

I've just looked at my local council's take on it. In the information they use the words entitled to with regards to the benefits. However, on the application form, they say they need to see proof that you are receiving the benefit. And my former council actually say in receipt of in the blurb

Not to say they are right (my council aren't great) but that's how I would see it

Bad wording from local authorities is one of my bugbears - I know I sometimes play loose with the wording of things to make it easier in discussion but when it comes down to the specifics the exact wording is essential.

The actual wording in legislation states the following (which is followed by a list of benefits):

The severely mentally impaired
3.—(1) The condition prescribed for the purposes of paragraph 2(1)(c) of Schedule 1 to the Act is that the person in question is entitled to one of the qualifying benefits listed in paragraph (2) below.

No-one's perfect but sometimes the basic parts are missing from some local authorities - it might seem minor to some but to others it can be the difference between applying for a reduction or not.

Craig

NeilCr

Belinda1960

What does your council's website/application form say on the matter?

belinda1960

Our council don't even include ESA on the list of benefits !!! They accept that their list is out of date. However, they are interested in hearing back from the chap in the Dept of Communities and Local Government as they feel that the start point for said exemption was that those who are SMI should be disregarded for Council Tax.

Their form says the applicant should, if applicable, be in receipt of certain benefits. Which is exceptionally vague.

NeilCr

belinda1960 wrote: »

Our council don't even include ESA on the list of benefits !!! They accept that their list is out of date. However, they are interested in hearing back from the chap in the Dept of Communities and Local Government as they feel that the start point for said exemption was that those who are SMI should be disregarded for Council Tax.

Their form says the applicant should, if applicable, be in receipt of certain benefits. Which is exceptionally vague.

And I thought our council weren't very good. I won't say a word against them now!

CIS

belinda1960 wrote: »

Our council don't even include ESA on the list of benefits !!! They accept that their list is out of date. However, they are interested in hearing back from the chap in the Dept of Communities and Local Government as they feel that the start point for said exemption was that those who are SMI should be disregarded for Council Tax.

Their form says the applicant should, if applicable, be in receipt of certain benefits. Which is exceptionally vague.

To be fair - they're only 8 years behind

Craig

belinda1960

Still waiting to hear back re definitive answer to the query re this post. BUT, the DWP link below seems to strongly imply that ESA claimants who only receive NI credits are in effect still "entitled" and as such are included in the ESA statisitics. This may uphold argument re ongoing right for SMI's to be disregarded for Council Tax.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/560554/dwp-stats-summary-october-2016.pdf

belinda1960

Finally got a reply from the Dep't of Local Communities and Local Gov't re this thread - see below :

" Dear Madam,

Council Tax Disregard Legislation for Severely Mentally Impaired Persons

Thank you for your email of 3 December 2016 to this Department about the council
tax exemption for persons with a severe mental impairment (SMI). I have been
asked to reply. I apologise for the delay in you receiving a response.

I appreciate you taking the time to bring this matter to the Department’s attention.
With regards to the issue of qualifying benefits, the Government has provided a
legislative framework for local authorities, and it is for them to consider individual
circumstances and come to a determination. That being said, we will give serious
consideration as to whether the regulations should be reviewed.

As you can appreciate the Department is not able to offer legal advice. However,
you may wish to obtain your own legal advice by approaching an organisation such
as the Citizens Advice Bureau (http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), who may be able
to help.

Yours sincerely,
Robert Middleton
Policy Advisor "

EMAIL THAT WAS SENT READ AS FOLLOWS :

" Dear Sir ,

I understand that you are responsible for Council Tax Disregard matters in the UK.

I have a query which arose during a recent community liaison and mental health forum that I attend, and I understand that you are the person who is equipped to answer.

In a nutshell , and as you will be aware, Local Authorities (LA's) are legally obliged to grant a Class U exemption for Council Tax payments to Severely Mentally Impaired (SMI) residents who meet certain qualifying conditions. The actual wording in legislation (as per Local Government Finance Act 1992 ) states amongst other things (wording followed by a list of routinely updated benefits):

" The severely mentally impaired disregard ....
3.—(1) The condition prescribed for the purposes of paragraph 2(1)(c) of Schedule 1 to the Act is that the person in question is entitled to one of the qualifying benefits listed in paragraph (2) below. "

As you will be aware one condition for the Council Tax disregard is for an SMI to be "entitled" to certain qualifying benefits, the two most common of which are currently - 1) ESA (either income based or contribution based), and 2) Personal Independence Payment (PIP) / Disability Living Allowance (DLA).

Some SMI's are not in receipt of PIP and/or DLA and/or care not to apply for said benefit. So in relation to this query PIP/DLA benefits are disregarded.

Our query relates to a situation which must now represent a fairly common set of circumstances.
Many SMI's are entitled to ESA of which at least one third are placed in the contribution based work related activity group (WRAG). As a result of changes in welfare legislation (and related cost cutting measures) an SMI on CB ESA, and in the WRAG, has had their weekly payment stopped after 365 days from circa mid 2013 onwards. In effect such persons appear to be "entitled", but not in receipt per se. It is such SMI's for whom this query relates. Yes, one can always try to apply for other relevant benefits, or for income based ESA, or apply to be put in to an ESA Support Group, but this is the exception rather than the norm.

So what then happens to an SMI's legal entitlement to an ongoing Class U CT exemption if they are no longer in receipt of ESA WRAG .... and their payments stop despite the fact that they are still "entitled" to ongoing ESA related benefits such as NI credits (see more below)? On the one hand some SMI's are no longer in receipt of a qualifying benefit as per the current CT disregard list, but for most they are still definitely not fit for work and are still classified as being SMI by their GP's.

I have asked 3 local authorities regarding this matter and they did not know whether the Class U exemption should apply post the end of the 365 ESA WRAG time limit, but they all felt that it should do. They admitted that to date no SMI had been refused ongoing Class U exemption as a result of the above. Furthermore, they acknowledged that most SMI's in this situation are still entitled to receipt/ payment of NI Credits by the DWP as they are still in effect entitled to come under the "ESA umbrella" as they are NOT fit for work. The link below confirms this to be the case (see ref to % of ESA claimants now solely in receipt of NI credits) :


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/560554/dwp-stats-summary-october-2016.pdf


The current legislation does not seem to account for the above set of circumstances, and thus I turn to you for an opinion regarding this matter, a topic which is doubtless already pertinent, and which will become increasingly prevalent over the coming months and years.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Regards "

Thx to member Philanthropist for help putting the above email together.

So what do you think of reply ? Passing the book ? When I asked LA's they referred me to the Council Tax Division at the Dep't for Local Communities and Gov't. The Gov't department has now sent me back to the the Local Authority.

Based on previous discussions I'd imagine the LA would allow the Class U exemption to continue. Could always write to LA asking for confirmation of an ongoing exemption, but would not surprise me if they tell me to go back to Dep't for Local Communities and Gov't !