Apprenticeship study pay

TheApprentice

Hello MSE!

I have quite a conundrum and I cannot find the answer. I am hoping there are some very smart people here who can assist,

I am a 30 year old apprentice, getting paid £7.00ph, doing a work-based apprenticeship. I do not go to college; I have a tutor who visits me every so often to issue assignements, and I complete these in my own time at home (usually around 6 hours per week, every week) as my employer doesn't allow any time during work to complete these. I work 40 hours per week, over 4 days and get wednesdays off (as do the rest of the staff) - however, my day off is usually spent doing assignments for my apprenticeship.

According to the government website (sorry, as a new user I am not permitted to use links), apprentices are supposed to be paid for study time, usually 1 day a week at college or university. However, nothing is mentioned about those where we are expected to study in our own time.

Snippet from gov.co.uk:
"Conditions
Apprentices usually work for at least 30 paid hours a week and must work more than 16.

You must pay your apprentice for time spent training or studying for a relevant qualification, whether while at work or at a college or training organisation."

I am under the impression that assignments do not constitute as study time, but as there is no mentoring on the job (I am employed for a specific job role which I undertake the same as everyone else, the apprenticeship is to allow me the piece of paper which says I can do said role), and my tutor is there only to issue work, everything I learn is from my assignments and my own reading and putting this into practice.

Should I be logging the time spent studying for my apprenticeship and asking my employer to pay me for this? Or am way off the mark here?

Thoughts and ideas?


Edit: Additional information from the Specification of Apprenticeship Standards for England (SASE) which is statutory, states that:
"An Intermediate Level Apprenticeship framework must
specify the number of Guided Learning Hours (GLH) that an
apprentice must receive to complete the framework. This
must be a minimum of 280 GLH of which at least 100 GLH
or 30% (whichever is the greater) must be delivered off-the job
and clearly evidenced..."

So lets assume that studying at home does not constitute as study time - the time allotted to tutor, or other additional off the job training, must equal at least 100GLH. However, I will receive nowhere near this amount of off the job training time, therefore would it not seem fit to attribute study time to these statutory GLH's?

paddyrg

Personally I'd be wary of wobbling the boat too much, the Apprentice minimum wage is under half what you're getting

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

I don't know the ins and outs, but just flagging this for you in case someone does a full recalculation and your pay is affected.

TheApprentice

Thanks for the reply.

I was already employed before my employer offered the apprenticeship, and my employment contract was never changed. Not sure they could change it even if they wanted to.

I don't want to come across as ungrateful, I am aware (and appreciative) that they pay me more than the apprentice wage (however, I was already under employment contract) but where they give with one thing, they take away with another (holidays, overtime etc.) but they are all for another day

I should perhaps also mention that my apprenticeship is competence-based, but have been assured it still falls under the SASE directive. However, I am not sure if competence based apprenticeships need to follow the guidelines for GLH's (whether they are still classed as intermediate or advanced, or their own separate category).

As with most things, I can't find a clear answer. :huh:

agrinnall

TheApprentice wrote: »

As with most things, I can't find a clear answer. :huh:

Have you asked the helpline?

Apprenticeship helpline [EMAIL="nationalhelpdesk@apprenticeships.gov.uk"]nationalhelpdesk@apprenticeships.gov.uk[/EMAIL]
Telephone: 0800 015 0400
8am to 10pm, 7 days a week

https://www.gov.uk/apprenticeships-guide/overview

sangie595

(a) Apprentices over a certain age (I think it's 25, but you would need to check) should be paid the minimum wage appropriate to their age - which is now £7.20.

(b) A lot of "apprentices" over the age of 25, are not subject to the same conditions. There is almost no funding to support employers providing apprenticeships for older workers, and so many of these so-called apprenticeships are really just training schemes that the employer pays for. Where this is the case, if you want the training, you put in the extra hours. You would need to know which kind of training you are on.

(c) You work 40 hours a week over four days? That means that you have more than one day off a week! So if you complete all of your assignments in one day - or six hours, in fact - you still have two days a week off.

emsywoo123

TheApprentice wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

I was already employed before my employer offered the apprenticeship, and my employment contract was never changed. Not sure they could change it even if they wanted to.

I don't want to come across as ungrateful, I am aware (and appreciative) that they pay me more than the apprentice wage (however, I was already under employment contract) but where they give with one thing, they take away with another (holidays, overtime etc.) but they are all for another day

I should perhaps also mention that my apprenticeship is competence-based, but have been assured it still falls under the SASE directive. However, I am not sure if competence based apprenticeships need to follow the guidelines for GLH's (whether they are still classed as intermediate or advanced, or their own separate category).

As with most things, I can't find a clear answer. :huh:

Essentially, you are not an apprentice, you are an employee, who is completing an apprenticeship qualification.

All apprenticeships are competence based; that is the nature of them?

You need to speak to your assessor about this if you are still unsure, but on that rate of pay and access to a recognised qualification that you are not paying for, I am not quite sure what you expect the outcome to be?

TheApprentice

sangie595 wrote: »

(a) Apprentices over a certain age (I think it's 25, but you would need to check) should be paid the minimum wage appropriate to their age - which is now £7.20.

(b) A lot of "apprentices" over the age of 25, are not subject to the same conditions. There is almost no funding to support employers providing apprenticeships for older workers, and so many of these so-called apprenticeships are really just training schemes that the employer pays for. Where this is the case, if you want the training, you put in the extra hours. You would need to know which kind of training you are on.

(c) You work 40 hours a week over four days? That means that you have more than one day off a week! So if you complete all of your assignments in one day - or six hours, in fact - you still have two days a week off.

I spend on average 6 hours per week on my day off doing assignments (generally doing around 24hours per assignment). Weekends are my time, so do not count them as "days off" in terms of work. But lets not play word games.

Also my employer very much gets funding for my qualification, which is part of the reason why I have been signed up for it. However, this still doesn't answer the question as to whether I can claim home study time as "off the job" guided learning hours (see answer further down) - and technically I shouldn't do this, as "off the job" GLH require the supervision of either a tutor or a mentor for my employment. And i figure it saves my employer money to just pay these hours rather than pay two people (myself and a mentor) to do them whilst at work.

emsywoo123 wrote: »

Essentially, you are not an apprentice, you are an employee, who is completing an apprenticeship qualification.

All apprenticeships are competence based; that is the nature of them?

You need to speak to your assessor about this if you are still unsure, but on that rate of pay and access to a recognised qualification that you are not paying for, I am not quite sure what you expect the outcome to be?

I am indeed and apprentice, as I am learning the job like any other apprentice, regardless of age. Also, apprenticeships can be defined as intermediate, advanced, or competence based....

And I am expecting to be paid for time spent doing something in my own time. Something which my employer is required to be allowing time for but isn't.
.
However, in answer to my own question I have been informed that, indeed, the SASE does apply and it is statutory for an apprentice to receive 100GLH (or 30% of total GLH, whichever is higher) as "off the job" training. The SASE is relatively specific as to what constitutes "off the job" training.

So it would seem I have 3 options.

1) Carry on as is and ignore it (though technically I cannot receive my qualification until these 100GLH off-the job have been signed off)

2) Request that my employer pay me the remaining GLH left over after tutor hours have been deducted.

3) Request that I complete the rest of my assignments in an office room at work, under the supervision of a supervisor, and ergo get paid for it.


Like I said, yes the employer is paying me to get a recognised qualification. Appreciated. However, other work factors which do not need to be disclosed are also a factor in why I feel the want to pursue this. It would be appreciated if we could all stick to the questions posed and leave any assumptions about how great/un-great myself or my employer are.

Thanks

emsywoo123

TheApprentice wrote: »

I spend on average 6 hours per week on my day off doing assignments (generally doing around 24hours per assignment). Weekends are my time, so do not count them as "days off" in terms of work. But lets not play word games.

Also my employer very much gets funding for my qualification, which is part of the reason why I have been signed up for it. However, this still doesn't answer the question as to whether I can claim home study time as "off the job" guided learning hours (see answer further down) - and technically I shouldn't do this, as "off the job" GLH require the supervision of either a tutor or a mentor for my employment. And i figure it saves my employer money to just pay these hours rather than pay two people (myself and a mentor) to do them whilst at work.



I am indeed and apprentice, as I am learning the job like any other apprentice, regardless of age. Also, apprenticeships can be defined as intermediate, advanced, or competence based....

And I am expecting to be paid for time spent doing something in my own time. Something which my employer is required to be allowing time for but isn't.
.
However, in answer to my own question I have been informed that, indeed, the SASE does apply and it is statutory for an apprentice to receive 100GLH (or 30% of total GLH, whichever is higher) as "off the job" training. The SASE is relatively specific as to what constitutes "off the job" training.

So it would seem I have 3 options.

1) Carry on as is and ignore it (though technically I cannot receive my qualification until these 100GLH off-the job have been signed off)

2) Request that my employer pay me the remaining GLH left over after tutor hours have been deducted.

3) Request that I complete the rest of my assignments in an office room at work, under the supervision of a supervisor, and ergo get paid for it.


Like I said, yes the employer is paying me to get a recognised qualification. Appreciated. However, other work factors which do not need to be disclosed are also a factor in why I feel the want to pursue this. It would be appreciated if we could all stick to the questions posed and leave any assumptions about how great/un-great myself or my employer are.

Thanks

You have misunderstood the meaning of GLH and how these are composed and "signed off" as you put it. You are also not fully aware of funding rules and how these impact your training. All of this is completely understandable in your position; the rules are complex.

You do not need to explain to me (or many others on here I'm sure) how apprenticeships are defined; I have been teaching and assessing these for many, many years.

As advised, speak to your assessor/training provider, as you do not seem willing to listen to advice on here.

agrinnall

You have not replied to my previous post, #4, have you done this?

sangie595

Clearly there are other agendas at play here, and manners are really not one of them. I'm out anyway.

TheApprentice

emsywoo123 wrote: »

You have misunderstood the meaning of GLH and how these are composed and "signed off" as you put it. You are also not fully aware of funding rules and how these impact your training. All of this is completely understandable in your position; the rules are complex.

You do not need to explain to me (or many others on here I'm sure) how apprenticeships are defined; I have been teaching and assessing these for many, many years.

As advised, speak to your assessor/training provider, as you do not seem willing to listen to advice on here.

I think I understand guided learning hours enough. They are hours spent learning under the guidance of a mentor or tutor. The fact is that the SASE states that I must receive 100 of these hours being taught off the job. Ordinarily the majority of this would be undertaken at college. However, that is not an option for me.

If I am way off the mark here I'd be interested in how you interpret GLHs.

And I did manage to speak go my learning provider who confirmed that my apprenticeship does fall under the SASE framework, and the 100GLH off the job should be provided.