Dodgy auctioneer?

C0l1n75

theoretica wrote: »

What happened when there were bids in the room? If the auctioneer ever starts with a commission bid of £100 and then it goes to £110 in the room and back to the auctioneer at £120 then the price probably didn't start at the top of the only commission bid, either there was more than one bid, or a reserve. With some auctions it can be hard to see if it has been bought by someone whose number the auctineer knows, on commission, or failed to sell.

I don't think there is anything illegal about saying the bid you leave is the bid the auctioneer puts in - but it should be clear in the T&Cs.

Thanks, you may well be right.
IIRC when there was a commission, IT was the starting bid, & usually sold straight away. A few times it was out-bid in the room but I don't recall it then going back to the auctioneer (& I was watching out for it) once the bidding was in the room, it stayed in the room.
I appreciate now it's much more complicated to track what's happening as a casual observer. I may have to covertly record it & see if trading standards would be interested.
May well turn out to be nothing after all but all of your comments are much appreciated.
Will post back any developments

C0l1n75

RFW wrote: »

I can't see what you would covertly record, you'd need to record every person in the room that the auctioneer could see, any papers/bids in front of him and any computer with internet bids. Trading standards wouldn't prosecute on something tenuous. It's probably harsh to say if there is something illicit going on but there isn't much of a victim here. You asked to pay £x for an item and you did, maybe next time leave a bid 10% lower than you are willing to pay and see what happens.

These days there are less and less attendees of auctions. If I was doing an auction now and there were six people in the room, I had 1000 plus lots to get through and lots of commission and internet bids I'd jump to the top price as quick as possible and get things moving. Chances are the few people in the room are only interested in one or two lots so trying to sell to them is a waste of time.

You're absolutely right.
That's exactly how it should be explained that way in the Ts&Cs.
Rather than: "Please note you should give us the maximum Hammer Price you are prepared to pay."

forgotmyname

Will the Trading Standards prosecute stupid people who bid too much?

I had my eye on some of those plastic garden seats that are also storage boxes, I cannot remember the exact prices, but from memory..
They were bid to within a few £ of the sale price at B&Q at the time, i dropped out way before that point. So they saved £3?
Well no because on top of their bid prices they had a 15% commission fee to add and 20% VAT to add. So they could have gone to B&Q and paid less.

Stupid people. There again some eejit bought faulty rubber matting Although it was cheap

StumpyPumpy

C0l1n75 wrote: »

Thanks StumpyPumpy,
Hadn't considered multiple commission bids.
That could explain it.
Still, would standard practice be to automatically go straight to the highest bid, rather than raise it by an increment? The higher bid could be way higher.
Seems the safest way is to be there on the day.

I've been at auctions where the auctioneer has raced through two sets of bids on the book without even looking up until one was out and others that say something along the lines of "I have multiple bids on the book so I need to start at..." It all depends on how the auctioneer wants to conduct the theatre of the sale, though for me, counting up gets tiresome very quickly.

The other thing to take into account is that most people will put a similar value on an item, so it isn't unusual for two commission bids to be around the same maximum price.

RFW could tell you more about it than me, but if an auctioneer is dodgy, the trade usually know about it and bid (or not) with that in mind. But, as a novice, even if you are there in person you will have no idea if the chandelier is bidding against you or a real person. The best advice I can give is that if you don't trust the auction room don't bid at all or make absolutely certain that you are happy with paying your maximum bid even if it is the auctioneer bidding you up.


SP

soolin

StumpyPumpy wrote: »

I've been at auctions where the auctioneer has raced through two sets of bids on the book without even looking up until one was out and others that say something along the lines of "I have multiple bids on the book so I need to start at..." It all depends on how the auctioneer wants to conduct the theatre of the sale, though for me, counting up gets tiresome very quickly.

The other thing to take into account is that most people will put a similar value on an item, so it isn't unusual for two commission bids to be around the same maximum price.

RFW could tell you more about it than me, but if an auctioneer is dodgy, the trade usually know about it and bid (or not) with that in mind. But, as a novice, even if you are there in person you will have no idea if the chandelier is bidding against you or a real person. The best advice I can give is that if you don't trust the auction room don't bid at all or make absolutely certain that you are happy with paying your maximum bid even if it is the auctioneer bidding you up.


SP

Actually an auction gets a reputation very quickly, I attend several different ones regularly and others on and off and I know exactly which ones the dealers trust and which they treat with suspicion. I've seen auctioneers 'called' by members of the audience (one auctioneer in particular comes to mind) and asked to show exactly who he was taking floor bids from- and I've had others who have actually asked for an auction to be stopped as they believe a price has been run up. I am not talking 'smart' auctions here though, I'm talking fast paced 3 lots a minute, unseated bidders, some without bidding numbers where you call your name to the auctioneer if you win (that one though is legit and the auctioneer has a phenomenal memory, if you win one lot he automatically remembers your name for the rest of the day).

I've seen an auction house do a moonlight flit, and I've seen police called to another.

I've also seen dodgy bidders trying to ring a more expensive piece and I am aware of someone who was threatened if he bid against a 'local'. There are often arguments on the floor especially on low end auctions where the first bid is the only one- so auctioneer will ask for say £5 and get a flurry of hands, and will have to choose which one to take then when he tries for £8 gets no more interest but all the unsuccessful £5 bidders will argue that their hand went up first.

Perhaps I should start going to more upmarket auctions :rotfl:

StumpyPumpy

That's my experience too, Soolin :rotfl: But from way back - my mother is a retired antiques dealer so I spent all my formative years in auction rooms (at a time when every small town seemed to have them). Good to see things haven't changed much:p My local auction house closed down 2 years ago and there are no others within a 30 mile radius of my house so I don't visit these days (not that I used to go very often).

When I was little my mother used to send me into the packed rooms to check lots just before they came under the hammer to see things were still there from when she viewed as I could squeeze through when she couldn't (a skill I retain, despite being considerably bigger these days:cool:) Amazing how many times a small, but critical, item would go missing - a teaspoon from a formally full canteen, a lid from a pot, a knob from a box etc. etc.

There always seemed to be at least one ring operating - you could find them huddled in the car park afterwards and I even remember my mother being called out by name by the auctioneer occasionally when she was bidding on an anonymous lot with "Come on ladies and gentlemen Mrs SP is bidding so there must be something good in there". Once she was outbid on some pots and pans after this: she only wanted them to give to my brother as he went off to university.

If that auction room hadn't been so good to buy at she wouldn't have put up with it, but she started getting one of the porters to bid on her behalf so the auctioneer wouldn't know what she was bidding on.

SP

RFW

I know of one seriously dodgy one that's been going for quite a long time now. It was a family business and the family fell out with each other and are now in separate businesses. All told 30+ years in business, they rely on a good turnover of customers.

You can deal with them without getting ripped off but really need to know what you're doing. There's not much chance of complaining as they are staffed by some handy looking characters.

They had quite a high profile court case a few years ago that they were found not guilty of. There was a lack of sufficient proof that they had done anything wrong.

Another one springs to mind who has since retired and emigrated. He held regular auctions and would take bids from anywhere. All his customers knew what he was doing but hung on for a bargain. He had lots of regulars and they generally thought he was a nice chap. I once asked him why he was so blatant at taking fake bids, he completely denied it and actually got quite ratty about it. It's a weird thing but just because an auctioneer has a bad reputation doesn't mean you can't get a good deal there. If anything there's a better chance, you just really need to be aware and know what's happening.

I've known auctioneers to take things out of boxes after an auction, switch lot numbers. One thing to look for is the type of auction you are attending and who the auctioneer is selling for. If they're selling a bankruptcy, for bailiffs or on behalf of an estate there's a good chance there will be no reserves and the auctioneer can sell to the highest bidder rather than make up bids on the floor.

The first auction I mentioned above sells a lot of stock they buy in from catalogue companies and high street chains. They'll buy up items at a percentage of the retail price. If they've bought a TV for £100 they aren't going to let Joe Public buy it for £50.

RFW

Perhaps I should start going to more upmarket auctions :rotfl:[/QUOTE]
I don't have much experience of upmarket auctions but from what I know they have a worse reputation than the little ones.

Upmarket customers were always the worst in an auction. I used to say that anyone with a suit and a briefcase wouldn't buy anything, I don't think it ever failed. My best customers always looked like hobos.

I knew a couple of brothers who were nice guys but looked like they were homeless they went around with thousands in cash on them.

C0l1n75

Glad to get some professional perspectives.
Any top trade secrets or tips for novices?
No.1 I'm guessing is stay well away!
As mrcol1000 says, prob not the place for novices.

RFW

C0l1n75 wrote: »

Glad to get some professional perspectives.
Any top trade secrets or tips for novices?
No.1 I'm guessing is stay well away!
As mrcol1000 says, prob not the place for novices.

Leaving bids is never the best idea. If you're planning to attend any auction write down the price you're willing to pay for every item you want to bid on and don't bid over it. Make sure you're clear which lot is being sold at the time. Also know what is added on to the knockdown price, most places will have a buyer's premium and VAT,. You could be paying up to 40% on top of the hammer price.

If it's a weekly auction go to one without an intention of buying anything and see what's happening in the room.

Largely speaking, I may have already said this, I don't care who or what is bidding against me. If I want to pay £x for something and I can pay that or less then I'm happy. If every lot goes above what I want to pay then I may try that auction again, if that failed I'd leave it alone.

Some of my best buys have been at the dodgiest auctions.