Co-Executor of Will Problems

ANGLICANPAT

'You havent mentioned the uncles age, but I was wondering if (presuming hes an individual of reasonable intelligence ) such obviously irrational behaviour could possibly be the beginnings of his mind 'losing ' it a bit. The first signs of dementia are not always obvious.

LHW99

Has probate been granted yet? Both executors would have to sign it, or sign that they do not wish to act.
We had to track down a small solicitor who was no longer in business because he had named himself personally as sole executor on my MIL's will, and the probate registry wouldn't accept the form unless he had been traced.
If probate is required, any solicitor should have spotted that your mum was named - unless there is another will that missed her name off?
As said above, consult a solicitor yourself, if nothing else they will be able to check things over in a professional manner and reassure you if everything is OK

G_M

LHW99 wrote: »

Has probate been granted yet? Both executors would have to sign it, or sign that they do not wish to act.

That's what I thought - but no.

Myself, brother and sister are joint Executers of our mother's estate. Unlike the OP, we are amicable and discuss/agree along the way. However we decided for practical reasons that I would apply for Probate in my name, with my siblings listed as 'Executers with power reserved'. That means they are not named on the Grant of Probate, and have no legal role unless they later inform the Probate Office they wish to renew their power.

I completed the Probate application forms, ticking the box 'Power Reserved' against my siblings' names, expecting them to be contacted for confirmation.

The Probate Office never contacted them and Probate was granted in my sole name.

In our case this does not matter as I copy them in on everything I do, have a separate bank account for the estate and regularly send them bank statements, copied them in on the Inheritance Tax forms, and discuss decisions etc etc.

But this rather rambling post is a warning - It can be done. An Executer can get Probate without the co-Executer even knowing!

And once that is done, that Executer can deal with Inheritance Tax how he wishes, dispose of property, sell assets etc etc

OP - your mother should take action.

* ideally, go across to MK and speak to Uncle. Spend at least a day, and reach agreement on how the Estate will be managed. Ask to see Aunt's accounts, insist on seperate Estate account, discuss ALL her assets etc. If she can resolve this amicably that is by far the best approach, but she will have to get involved, and will have to pursuade uncle to cooperate

* If uncle will not cooperate, and agree to all decisions in future being joint, and all information being shared, then she will have to take firmer (and possibly more expensive) action

* an alternative is to just let him get on with it. Keep fingers crossed that he is doing the right thing, paying tax that's due, protecting the Beneficiaries' inheritance, following correct procedures. One good sign is the increase he made in the property price. At least by increasing it he potentially gets more for the beneficiaries. Reducing the price excessively would be more worrying!

* a solicitor could advise her (cost should come from the Estate ultimately, and thus reduce what goes to Beneficiaries), and this might be the way forward.

* the Probate Office is an alternative option. For £20 she could enter a 'Caveat' (Form PA8). This would prevent Probate from being granted to Uncle. See here.
He would then have to work with her. I suspect that this is what a solicitor would do (for a bigger fee!) if a threatening letter to uncle did not work.

mike88

I suggest you post your concerns on the very active Motley Fool website.

The site is very knowledgeable about such issues and is frequented by experts in the field. I found their advice invaluable when dealing with a probate issue. All executors should be involved in all aspects of the probate and it is wrong for your uncle to seek total control without the authority of all executors.

As to your concerns about the funds going into the uncle's personal account this is not that unusual and certainly not illegal as long as all the proceeds are accounted for. Some people open probate accounts but my bank was not overly keen to do this.

pafpcg

G_M wrote: »

One good sign is the increase he made in the property price. At least by increasing it he potentially gets more for the beneficiaries.

On the contrary, it could be a bad sign! Let's be cynical for a moment and assume that the uncle really is wicked:

He's agreed with his co-executor what the sale price will be. When the house is sold, he tells his co-executor he's got the expected funds in the account and distributes the shares of those funds to the beneficiaries. But he's actually sold the house for £30k more than the agreed amount and he pockets the difference!

This is why so many family relationships suffer because of what might be mere suspicions or trivial misunderstandings over the distribution of the estates of deceased family members. Once trust breaks down, problems will inevitably follow.

xylophone

Your mother has not renounced and is still co-executor.

In her position, I would insist that an executors' account be opened and that both signatures were required.

Has she consulted her own solicitor?

http://wedlakebell.com/articles-and-comment/2014/04/11/executors-and-reserving-power-to-the-grant-of-probate/

Malthusian

pafpcg wrote: »

On the contrary, it could be a bad sign! Let's be cynical for a moment and assume that the uncle really is wicked:

He's agreed with his co-executor what the sale price will be. When the house is sold, he tells his co-executor he's got the expected funds in the account and distributes the shares of those funds to the beneficiaries. But he's actually sold the house for £30k more than the agreed amount and he pockets the difference!

It would be pretty stupid of him given that the real sale price would shortly be available for all to see on Rightmove. Which is not to say that some people might not try it. But in this case, my understanding is that the Mum has not reserved powers and needs to co-sign everything, so she would see the real sale price when she came to sign the documents agreeing the sale.

The real problem is that they had a sale agreed with a buyer at the original price only for the uncle to decide to play silly games and demand more, when there is no buyer willing to pay that price. And that retirement home fees are payable but the Uncle is refusing to pay them, which will drag things out even more as presumably these fees do need to be paid and will have to be settled before the beneficiaries can be given their share.

G_M

Malthusian wrote: »

........ But in this case, my understanding is that the Mum has not reserved powers and needs to co-sign everything, so she would see the real sale price when she came to sign the documents agreeing the sale.

........

See my warning above. Uncle could submit probate application and list mum as Reserved Powers. She would not know. Uncle then gets Grant of Probate in his sole name and can sell without mum's involvement.

Shocking system, but .......

Fenris

Hi all,

Apologies for the very late response. I had to go into hospital for a routine operation and Mum's been ill with a slipped disk and now has bronchitis! Not been a good few weeks.

I'll update as best I can:

I should point out that my Aunt and Uncle were brother and sister, not married, so there's no issue of any money automatically going to a spouse. Out of my Mother and Uncle, my Mother is the older sibling.

He didn't have a buyer lined up for the house. Mum and he agreed a selling price with the agent, Mum signed to say she was happy with the selling price, but when he next phoned he said he'd upped it by £30k.

Since posting here we've had contact with Uncle several times and he's continued to be uncooperative. He did want to come to see Mum Sunday passed, but she was just too ill to be dealing with him. I called and told him she wasn't well and he got really irate! At first he said he had some paperwork she needed to sign so I asked him to put it in the post so Mum could read it at her leisure without him hovering around expecting her to sign as soon as he arrived (which is what happened the last time he came up; Mum didn't get to see all the paperwork because Uncle's new "partner" kept her talking in the kitchen whist he stashed everything away!). He said it was essential she sign the paperwork immediately and I again suggested he send it to us and, if he was that worried about it going awol to send it Recorded Delivery. He went very quiet and when prompted he just said, "forget it". I said that if it's to do with Aunt's Probate Mum had to see and sign everything, to which he said, "not necessarily. My solicitor says she doesn't". Then he went on to say the documents weren't about Aunt's Probate and he'd get someone else to sign his "personal" papers. When I said again Mum needed to see everything in relation to the estate he promptly hung up on me!

After that I sent out some e-mails, most notably to the Probate solicitor. As it turns out, Uncle didn't tell them Mum was a co-executor and they're apparently too thick to read that part of Aunt's will! So Mum's been kept in the dark for over 5 months because of the deceitfulness of Uncle and apparent non-interest of the Probate solicitors.

So, even though Mum's been ill I said we had to get a solicitor involved like people here suggested. Mum's solicitor retired last year so we had to find a new one. Luckily we found a really great one in town who said he'll write to the Probate people in the first instance to see if it's been granted. Then he'll see where to go from there. I'm hoping we can get Uncle removed as co-executor and that Mum can get all the info she's been missing, but I guess that's a long shot.

I feel vindicated though as Uncle has, from the very start of this process, constantly ignored me when I've said Mum needs to be involved in everything and that, if she's not and he screws up in some way, they're both liable. He's said it'll only be him, but Mum's new solicitor confirmed I was right all along and she would be liable! I'm glad to have official confirmation that I've been correct all along.

I'll try and keep this thread updated incase anyone else is going through this kind of thing. Hopefully it'll serve to inform people of what to do and what not to do! In our case, don't leave a lying toerag family member to deal with stuff for months on end because it'll eat you up and you'll end up paying through the nose for it in the end.

Cheers all!
Fen.

greenglide

I feel vindicated though as Uncle has, from the very start of this process, constantly ignored me when I've said Mum needs to be involved in everything and that, if she's not and he screws up in some way, they're both liable. He's said it'll only be him, but Mum's new solicitor confirmed I was right all along and she would be liable! I'm glad to have official confirmation that I've been correct all along.

It is very simple to get an executor removed so that just one executor goes to probate. We did that with my mother's will last year. My brother was in hospital and basically wasnt coming out again. I explained this to the solicitor and she said "no problem" and just wrote a letter to my brother telling him of this and to respond if not happy with this. Amazingly it didnt require a response from him.

So if you intercept the letter go can get sole probate very easily.

Our case was genuine but shows how easy in can be!