Parental support worries

missbiggles1

mumps wrote: »

I employed a lot of student nurses over the years, they tended to prefer it to bank work as I could plan shifts with them well in advance. They all went straight into employment without working on bank by the way.

The amount your students would have needed to supplement their bursary will be very different to the OPs daughter. The support for single parent student nurses was excellent. I know of student nurses who were worse off financially when they qualified as they were getting such good support while studying so I can't imagine many of them did lots of shifts.

If the OPs daughter doesn't get enough loan to cover her rent, quite possible on her parents earnings, how many hours do you reckon she would need to supplement her income?

On a purely numerical basis and using NMW for the calculation, someone would need to work just under 600 hours pa to make up the deficit mentioned earlier. However, many trusts pay band 3 for year 2 and 3 students and, of course, there's unsocial hours payments to be taken into account as well, both of which would bring those numbers down considerably.

Although nursing students get fewer holidays than in other areas, there are, as you know, 8 weeks of holidays and several study weeks a year so I doubt that many students would need to do more than one 12 hour shift a fortnight to make up the deficit if doing several shifts during holiday periods.

I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my point about lone parents doing nurse training. Their financial situation was obviously better but I was referring to the fact that, having done exactly the same placement and university work as an 18/19/20 year old, they then had to go home and look after their own households and their own children, day in day out. I don't think anybody would argue that this was considerably more work than a younger student doing a bank shift would be putting in and with no choice in the matter.

mumps

missbiggles1 wrote: »

On a purely numerical basis and using NMW for the calculation, someone would need to work just under 600 hours pa to make up the deficit mentioned earlier. However, many trusts pay band 3 for year 2 and 3 students and, of course, there's unsocial hours payments to be taken into account as well, both of which would bring those numbers down considerably.

Although nursing students get fewer holidays than in other areas, there are, as you know, 8 weeks of holidays and several study weeks a year so I doubt that many students would need to do more than one 12 hour shift a fortnight to make up the deficit if doing several shifts during holiday periods.

I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my point about lone parents doing nurse training. Their financial situation was obviously better but I was referring to the fact that, having done exactly the same placement and university work as an 18/19/20 year old, they then had to go home and look after their own households and their own children, day in day out. I don't think anybody would argue that this was considerably more work than a younger student doing a bank shift would be putting in and with no choice in the matter.

At my local uni they get six weeks off a year not eight. On top of that they get 2 study weeks.

Is that making up the shortfall in the loan or looking at what they might need over and above the loan? Even in years gone by most of my student nurses needed more hours than that if they didn't have parental support over and above what is expected.

I never had a student nurse working for me who had children, it would seem very unfair on the children if mum or dad is working 40 hr week on placement, probably with travel time on top and I've known them have an hour each way to commute, and doing uni work and then working shifts as well. When would they see their family? As I said before if they were single parents they would get alot of financial support so I don't see why they would need to do that.

That said the OP was talking about midwifery which seems more difficult. I am doing childcare with GC at the moment so that mum can do a midwifery degree and due to the unpredictable nature of labour they are often doing far more than 40 hrs with very unsociable hours. To be honest unless they have a partner who can do alot of the childcare or family to pick up children, have them to sleep over when working nights or starting early I don't know how they manage at all let alone working as well.

Nurses and midwifery students will have a hard time without the bursaries and there is already a shortage, doesn't bode well for the future.

missbiggles1

mumps wrote: »

At my local uni they get six weeks off a year not eight. On top of that they get 2 study weeks.

Is that making up the shortfall in the loan or looking at what they might need over and above the loan? Even in years gone by most of my student nurses needed more hours than that if they didn't have parental support over and above what is expected.

I never had a student nurse working for me who had children, it would seem very unfair on the children if mum or dad is working 40 hr week on placement, probably with travel time on top and I've known them have an hour each way to commute, and doing uni work and then working shifts as well. When would they see their family? As I said before if they were single parents they would get alot of financial support so I don't see why they would need to do that.

That said the OP was talking about midwifery which seems more difficult. I am doing childcare with GC at the moment so that mum can do a midwifery degree and due to the unpredictable nature of labour they are often doing far more than 40 hrs with very unsociable hours. To be honest unless they have a partner who can do alot of the childcare or family to pick up children, have them to sleep over when working nights or starting early I don't know how they manage at all let alone working as well.

Nurses and midwifery students will have a hard time without the bursaries and there is already a shortage, doesn't bode well for the future.

I used the word "deficit" - I think that's much the same thing as shortfall.

I'm sorry, I've explained very carefully that I'm not talking about lone parents doing bank shifts but of looking after their own children - I really don't think I can put it more simply, sorry. (Mature students aren't the exception by the way - the average age for a nursing student is still 29.)

The reason for shortages are, I feel, far more complicated than recruitment numbers, it was, after all, only 10 years ago that nurse unemployment was at an all time high. In fact, the year I retired (2007), our local university told all its new intake that they were likely to face unemployment when they graduated and this was in the introductory talk!

Just to add, students will be no worst off without bursaries, in fact they'll actually receive more than they do with the bursary at present - however, they will have larger loans to pay off. (Which doesn't mean that I approve.)

mumps

missbiggles1 wrote: »

I used the word "deficit" - I think that's much the same thing as shortfall.

I'm sorry, I've explained very carefully that I'm not talking about lone parents doing bank shifts but of looking after their own children - I really don't think I can put it more simply, sorry. (Mature students aren't the exception by the way - the average age for a nursing student is still 29.)

The reason for shortages are, I feel, far more complicated than recruitment numbers, it was, after all, only 10 years ago that nurse unemployment was at an all time high. In fact, the year I retired (2007), our local university told all its new intake that they were likely to face unemployment when they graduated and this was in the introductory talk!

Just to add, students will be no worst off without bursaries, in fact they'll actually receive more than they do with the bursary at present - however, they will have larger loans to pay off. (Which doesn't mean that I approve.)

So 12 hrs a fortnight would just replace what the parents aren't paying, that won't even cover halls for lots of places so they would probably need to work at least double that to pay rent and eat never mind a visit to the pub.

I don't understand that about ten years ago, the student nurses I was employing then all went straight into jobs. Maybe it was regional? Or maybe branch of nursing?

Yes I misunderstood about the students with children. I do think its a bit different though, I mean you can say sod cooking and get a take away at home but work isn't quite so flexible. Granted it is hard for parents, as I say with DIL she really couldn't do her degree if I wasn't able to do so many overnights, early mornings and school pick ups. Wrap around care only wraps so far.

The bursary system used to be a bit different, admittedly it changed 3 or 4 years ago. What my local uni did was start everyone on the diploma for 2 years so they all got a full non means tested bursary, if they achieved a certain level in their studies they could opt to switch to the degree in year 3 and then went onto the means tested bursary which obviously meant a big drop in funding for some. I know not all unis did this but locally it meant decent funding for at least 2 of the 3 years. I thought it was a great way to ensure good funding for all the students.

I know a new first year isn't going to be a great help on a ward but I think the NHS would be struggling without the work the 2nd and 3rd years do unpaid. It strikes me as exploitation.

Spendless

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that the student could work part-time during their sixth form years and save up from those earnings to help out during the Uni years. Or at least could use those earnings to pay their own way in the form of clothing, travel, toiletries etc leaving the parents to have some spare cash to put away for future years education.

From the age given, isn't there at least a year from now before she'd go to Uni, so there's time to find some work.

missbiggles1

mumps wrote: »

So 12 hrs a fortnight would just replace what the parents aren't paying, that won't even cover halls for lots of places so they would probably need to work at least double that to pay rent and eat never mind a visit to the pub.

I don't understand that about ten years ago, the student nurses I was employing then all went straight into jobs. Maybe it was regional? Or maybe branch of nursing?

Yes I misunderstood about the students with children. I do think its a bit different though, I mean you can say sod cooking and get a take away at home but work isn't quite so flexible. Granted it is hard for parents, as I say with DIL she really couldn't do her degree if I wasn't able to do so many overnights, early mornings and school pick ups. Wrap around care only wraps so far.

The bursary system used to be a bit different, admittedly it changed 3 or 4 years ago. What my local uni did was start everyone on the diploma for 2 years so they all got a full non means tested bursary, if they achieved a certain level in their studies they could opt to switch to the degree in year 3 and then went onto the means tested bursary which obviously meant a big drop in funding for some. I know not all unis did this but locally it meant decent funding for at least 2 of the 3 years. I thought it was a great way to ensure good funding for all the students.

I know a new first year isn't going to be a great help on a ward but I think the NHS would be struggling without the work the 2nd and 3rd years do unpaid. It strikes me as exploitation.

Most of my clients did the Higher Diploma rather than the degree, partly for the financial reasons you mention but also because it avoided crssing the Solent every day.:)

inkie

My daughter is in her third year at uni. Thankfully she is in a cheap place to live.
Our household income is no where near the OPs - we fall in to the category of being too high for her to have got a grant, but not high enough that we are loaded and find it easy to support her. However, since she has been at uni we have given her £200 per month (not in a position to work as well as study at the moment due to health). She manages her money very well and has managed to add to her savings etc. We see it is a priority to support financially through uni.
This year is different as she got married in the summer (her hubby is also a student), and we paid for the wedding. and
Our income and his parents isn't now taken in to account this year as they are financially dependant upon each other and so as well as the loan, they will each have a grant as well and they will have a good income to live off. He works p/t and his parents give a financial contribution as well which I believe is carrying on. I know that they are sensible with their money and will be saving up for a house deposit and so we're happy to keep contributing as we made that commitment at the start of her studies

It's a matter of priority and she'd be costing more than that if still at home

Luckystar

I think telling your 17 year old daughter that you are unable to help support her financially through uni would be a huge shock to her, especially as your household income has I assume provided her with a comfortable lifestyle up until now. I would look at your household budget and see where you are able to make cut backs and start saving! Like others have posted when she moves to uni your foods bills etc will decrease so you can use that towards an allowance for her. Someone said to me about 10 years ago that it's a myth children at non dependants at 18 years and more like 22/23. My kids are 18 and 17 (oldest just started uni) and I'm glad we started saving for them at birth and even though it was just a small monthly standing order being paid they both have some savings to help them through their uni education.

mumps

missbiggles1 wrote: »

Most of my clients did the Higher Diploma rather than the degree, partly for the financial reasons you mention but also because it avoided crssing the Solent every day.:)

I never understood why the support was different for the diploma and the degree but I did like the way they did it at son's university. His support halved during the last year but at least it was just one year and he had worked and saved during gap year so he had the money. We also gave him some support, his siblings all had support so he got the same, well similar at least.

The good news is he is now starting a Masters which is being funded by his employer and he is getting paid time off to do it. I think he will be in an unusual position for his generation with a degree and masters and no debt.