Negotiating with PowerGen for a malfunctioning metre

cookies_dribble

Hi - first time here so hello to everyone!

I hope someone out there can help me with a dilemma I have.

About 2 years ago I switched both my Gas and Electricity suppliers to PowerGen. I agreed to pay a standard amount each month by direct debit.

I also notified them that I wanted to receive my statements by email. A few months later my employers merged with another company and I had to change my email address, however, I overlooked informing PowerGen. As a result I have not received a statement from them during the intervening period.

When the prices of Gas increased last year I decided to increase my monthly payments.

I have just received a letter from them to say that my account is in credit by some £400 and that they have decided to reduce my monthly direct debit by £25. Their letter prompted me to contact them as I had not received a statement. They offered to repay some of the credit in my account, however, on inspection I was informed that I had not been charged for my electricity and they thought that there was some problem with the metre. Apparently although it was periodically read no-one had noticed that it was the same for each reading. They have arranged for a replacement to be fitted and are suggesting that after 2 - 3 weeks they will have a basis for charging for the 2 years when the metre was at fault.

I'm not sure if anyone has had a similar problem and how they negotiated with a Supplier. I feel obligated to pay a 'reasonable' sum but I want to understand the position I should take when they submit their estimation namely:

- should I accept their proposal at face value or negotiate downwards based on the changing nature of my consumption

- should I say that they need to supply an accurate statement of actual usage (which they can't apparently) and only accept to pay a discretionary amount as it was their problem that they should have detected earlier.

- what is the legal position

- should I threaten to change my supplier so that they have no recourse but to accept a low settlement

In essence I don't know whether to be conciliatory or to take a hard stance as I believe it was their problem that they don't appear to have any processes to detect such errors.

I only intend to pay the appropriate rate per month rather than takings today's rate.

Thanks in advance for your help with this

magyar

cookies_dribble wrote: »

I'm not sure if anyone has had a similar problem and how they negotiated with a Supplier. I feel obligated to pay a 'reasonable' sum but I want to understand the position I should take when they submit their estimation namely:

- should I accept their proposal at face value or negotiate downwards based on the changing nature of my consumption

- should I say that they need to supply an accurate statement of actual usage (which they can't apparently) and only accept to pay a discretionary amount as it was their problem that they should have detected earlier.

- what is the legal position

- should I threaten to change my supplier so that they have no recourse but to accept a low settlement

In essence I don't know whether to be conciliatory or to take a hard stance as I believe it was their problem that they don't appear to have any processes to detect such errors.

I only intend to pay the appropriate rate per month rather than takings today's rate.

Thanks in advance for your help with this

It seems reasonable to me that you should both share responsibility for this. Clearly Powergen should have noticed your usage wasn't increasing, although in fairness this might have been because the house was empty. And clearly you have a responsibility too, because it's your electricity. Similarly, you chose to receive electronic bills and didn't update them of the new address.

I think the legal position would be that unless you could prove you weren't living there, they would have a strong case that you had used electricity and could make a 'reasonable' claim. If you tell them how many rooms the house has, how many people live there, what appliances you have, whether you're there in the day etc. then they'll be able to estimate the usage pretty accurately.

However, if the supplier is at fault, then they can only backdate those bills one year, not two. It's a moot point to me whether they're at fault or not, because technically they own the meter and not you (even though it's in your house).

My advice would be that it's likely that the supplier would win if they decide to take you to court. The magnitude of this is more than the £100 or so that they will value your custom, so threatening to switch is probably not going to help.

My view on a 'reasonable' settlement is a backdated estimate for two years, and given time to pay if there's a large excess over what they took in DDs.

cookies_dribble

Thanks MagyarI guess the ways forward is to wait until they install the new metre take a few weeks of usage and then propose an estimate.I assume that they will have to be 'reasonable' with their estimation as they have little to go with in my opinion. Thanks again

SwanJon

If they are going to base your past 2 years consumption on a few weeks, and you know when they will be, concentrate for a couple of months on minimising you electricity use (good for the long run too), as then the estimate will be lower.
Take your own readings, and make your own estimate.

As to the not charging you for more than a year, this is more fuzzy.
Technically they have billed you, but the reads were inaccurate - the same as if they had used estimates, and so I don't think you'd actaully be able to use that argument. I'm suprised that they didn't send you a paper bill if the email address was now invalid - they should have got a bounce back.

They already have your money, so threateninig to leave wouldn't cost them the same as if they had to chase you for the money.

Try to argue them down, but you've been paying what you thought was reasonable all along. Have you lost anything?

magyar

SwanJon wrote: »

As to the not charging you for more than a year, this is more fuzzy.

Technically they have billed you, but the reads were inaccurate - the same as if they had used estimates, and so I don't think you'd actaully be able to use that argument. I'm suprised that they didn't send you a paper bill if the email address was now invalid - they should have got a bounce back.

Just to have the discussion, I'm not sure I agree. They have billed (and the OP says that they did take actual readings), and so notwithstanding that there's always a discrepancy between an estimate and a reading, their bills were 'accurate'. They didn't reflect the actual usage because their meter wasn't working properly.

However, I maintain that the OP clearly used some electricity and should pay for it, but I agree it's sensible to pay as little as possible.

Terrylw1

Hi,

You had a "stopped meter" and it's common practice to bill you up based on monitoring readings from the new meter. This can typically be based on 7 days readings (hence if in a summer period you can sometimes win a bit back). It can differ by supplier, but they usually want to resolve it quickly so it may be done this way.

Yes, they should have noticed but - you have been consuming energy so the rule is to be reasonable to the customer. Ofgem/Energywatch will back them on this.

You have to bare in mind that you could have the account set up and have been away, work abroad, use it as a sumer house only, etc...so sometimes there are properties that just don't advance for legitimate reasons. The local Data Collector (those how record reading data from the guys that read your meter) are supposed to inform the supplier of this. So, if they didn't, they may have overlooked it.

You are right though, THEY should have noticed.

BUT - they cannot bill you for more than the last 12 months, this is a rule set in place by the regulator, Ofgem. In my experience, suppliers try to pick on the customers that don't understand this ans try to be cunning. So, remind them of the 12 month rule and they will immediately back off. If they don't, tell them you are complaining to Energywatch and do so, their details should be on the back of your bill or attached in your case. If not, google search it.

cookies_dribble

Thanks Guys

Very helpful information, particularly the 12 month rule which I will use

stewie_griffin

The 12 month rule won't apply in your situation. This only applies if you have not physically been billed for over 12 months. Even though on your bills there would have been zero charges you have still been getting bills.

They should allow you to pay off any debt that occurs because of this over the same period that your meter was faulty for i.e. 2 years. As you pay by Direct Debit and have therefore built a large credit on your account the debt will hopefully not be too big any way.

magyar

stewie_griffin wrote: »

The 12 month rule won't apply in your situation. This only applies if you have not physically been billed for over 12 months. Even though on your bills there would have been zero charges you have still been getting bills.

I disagree, Stewie, I think it would. Firsly, Ofgem's ruling was

...energy suppliers should stop seeking payment for unbilled energy where a supplier has failed to bill for over 12 months and is at fault for not doing so.

which you could read two ways:
i) that 'has failed to bill' could mean 'has not provided a physical bill', or;
ii) that the physical bill doesn't not contain 'a bill for energy consumed'. So yes, they provided a physical bill, but they did not bill for all the energy consumed.

I assume you're reading it as (i), but the correct reading is (ii). They are most certainly at fault, since the meter is not the customer's, but is still the property of the supplier (and anyway, you can't touch or examine your meter).

Secondly, if you read Ofgem's ruling, it is clear that the intention of it was to protect the customer from a situation where a large bill can accrue as a result of a discrepancy between an estimated bill and an actual one. Even though that is what not happened on this occasion, the material consequence is the same: as a result of the supplier's error regarding billing, the customer has a large, unexpected bill.

Terrylw1

Hi Stewie,

This is where people often end up with a battle with Suppliers. They mix up "estimated bills" with MP "energy comsumption". If the supplier has failed to resolve the issue, they have to back down. They had at least 12 months to spot a stopped meter which they should have clearly defined system measures. If they fail to sort it, it's their problem, not the customers.

The most they can do is to use the customers estimates that were paid to balance it of.

Just to make another point:
- in the case of a stopped meter, the supplier hasn't paid the energy to the distributor either. Estimates are created based on the previous years energy consumption for the Supplier in this case but after a while the estimate becomes "nill units" to the supplier.

So, the supplier have have actually gained a profit in this situation. Of course, staff often don't understand this area of the market and think they have paid.

I remember a while back putting a stop to a change in this process for a supplier I won't name (when I was in the game myself) who wanted to bill out to customers when they in fact were not paying the energy back themselves in this scenario. It got canned very easily when it was pointed out that this sailed very close to the les than legal mark!!!


Magyar is right. Push on the issue and watch them back down!