Advice needed

Joesniff79

Hi
My wife died leaving me with 3 daughters in October 2012 my tenancy agreement expired in November 2012 I thought this was best time to move and start a new life so moved to other side of city 40 mins away in Jan 2013..I only had moving van for 4 hrs and was short notice move I moved all that I could in 2 trips but left a bit of stuff in the house that we couldn't bring.i don't drive so couldn't go back to move items but left deposit hoping this would be enough to pay to throw items out..I gave keys to letting agent and moved to our new house
Fast forward to June 2015 and I received email from landlord saying that I had left house in bad state he had taken letting agent to court for unpaid rent from when my wife had died and won the case but was now threading to bring me to small claims court for new carpets and Lino to paint the whole house..I was in the property for 4 years and this was never replaced..he also wants money for a new cooker and damage to kitchen caused by a leaking gutter which caused damp..he has sent me receipts from decorators this was dated 6 months after we left property and fixing of leaking pipe was dated 1 year after I had left property..he is also asking for 2 months rent it had took to do house up..
In total he wants £2900 do you think this is unjust? When he emailed in 2015 I panicked when he mentioned court and paid £5 a week o don't know why I just panicked but I cancelled this payment in March 2016 and he emailed me last month saying he is now taking me to court..I am at my wits end and I am so stressed..if he had my email address why didn't he message me in 2013 and let me know he had problems with house? Why did he wait so long to get contractors in? Why did he wait a year to fix leaking gutter?

Please help

tacpot12

The leaking gutter is his responsibility as are the Lino, Carpets and Redecorating unless you damaged them, and it is his resposbility to prove that you were the cause of the damage. He will have additional difficulties with trying to get a court to charge you for the redecorating even if the reason is damage as there might have been a tenant in the property after you. I would respond back politely to say that you will consider contributing to any items he can prove were damaged by you but that you will not contribute to items that need replacing/redecorating due to wear and tear and you will not contribute to repairs to the fabric of the building.

The letting agent has been sued for any rent lost when you moved out of the property. Depending on what notice you gave there may be nothing due, or the landlord may have already recovered any lost rent that they were entitled to when they sued the letting agent. Remember that any damage that you are liable for has already been partly covered by the deposit you left. A normal deposit would cover more than the disposal of what you left at the property. By the sounds of it your landlord probably owes you money.

MillyR

Sorry to hear about your horrid situation.

Without knowing the amount of damage you caused it's impossible to be completely certain, but assuming it was within a reasonable extent it sounds ridiculous that he'd bill you so long after the event.

Providing receipts to show repairs that happened a year later? He's going to struggle to defend that...

I agree with tacpot12.

MillyR

Also, I suggest asking him why he took so long to a) fix things and b) contact you.

Dipak

Joesniff79 wrote: »

Hi
My wife died leaving me with 3 daughters in October 2012 my tenancy agreement expired in November 2012 I thought this was best time to move and start a new life so moved to other side of city 40 mins away in Jan 2013..I only had moving van for 4 hrs and was short notice move I moved all that I could in 2 trips but left a bit of stuff in the house that we couldn't bring.i don't drive so couldn't go back to move items but left deposit hoping this would be enough to pay to throw items out..I gave keys to letting agent and moved to our new house
Fast forward to June 2015 and I received email from landlord saying that I had left house in bad state he had taken letting agent to court for unpaid rent from when my wife had died and won the case but was now threading to bring me to small claims court for new carpets and Lino to paint the whole house..I was in the property for 4 years and this was never replaced..he also wants money for a new cooker and damage to kitchen caused by a leaking gutter which caused damp..he has sent me receipts from decorators this was dated 6 months after we left property and fixing of leaking pipe was dated 1 year after I had left property..he is also asking for 2 months rent it had took to do house up..
In total he wants £2900 do you think this is unjust? When he emailed in 2015 I panicked when he mentioned court and paid £5 a week o don't know why I just panicked but I cancelled this payment in March 2016 and he emailed me last month saying he is now taking me to court..I am at my wits end and I am so stressed..if he had my email address why didn't he message me in 2013 and let me know he had problems with house? Why did he wait so long to get contractors in? Why did he wait a year to fix leaking gutter?

Please help

Based on what you are saying above i dont feel your LL has a leg to stand on. You moved out in 2013, then why has it taken him/her nearly 2 years to notify you of damages?

When you mentioned that the LL has taken the letting agent to court and won, have you actually checked that or just taken his/her word for it?

Can you remember or do have any paper work that shows the bond was registered by DPS or similar bond proctection scheme? Do you by any chance have an inventory? Might be a long shot but your letting agent should have copies of both. If you did have an inventory then you'll be able to prove how it was when you moved it and letting agent would then have checked it again (minus wear and tear) when you moved out.

In terms of the bond, have a read of this https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview and depending on whether you were there before April 2007 or after you might have a case against your LL

Hope that helps.

D

Small_Yeti

Hi,

Firstly I must be clear that I'm not a Solicitor, however, I have done some some quite serious law exams for my profession and do know the court process pretty well.

Firstly, the bad news. Without knowing the full details, his period of limitation would appear to be six years, so if he wants to bring action against you it looks like he is not time barred. OK bad news over, onto the good...

I highly and I do mean highly doubt he'd have a reasonable chance of getting a penny out of you in court. The first thing to note is a well known statement "delay is the enemy of litigation." No Judge is going to be impressed with the fact he's trying to come after you nearly four years after you moved out unless he has a seriously good reason for the delay.

I don't know what arrangement he had with the letting agents but, if it was their responsibility to confirm check out i.e. they were in charge of the inventory and for confirming the general condition of the building on your departure, then ultimately it will be them and not you that is liable if they retained the responsibility to ensure that they completed the check out to a satisfactory level. So either they came back to you with a list of items that needed to be rectified or any issues they had or they decided you had left the property in reasonable condition and if the landlord took issue then they would need evidence to support why they decided the property was acceptable - not you.

Unless you actively damaged the property the landlord cannot charge you for reasonable wear and tear. This includes carpets, decor and items included in the lease. He absolutely cannot charge you for repairs to a pipe or guttering unless you damaged them and he can prove such.

In short unless there was an inventory before you checked in and an inventory when you checked out, both of which you signed, dated photographs to show actual damage and not wear and tear (everything in your email sounds to be wear and tear) and that it would be reasonable to conclude you had caused that damage (i.e. it was evident the day you moved out and the agent raised it with you) then he stands no chance whatsoever.

Depending on his contract with the letting agent, if they were responsible for check out, his court action would have included any property repairs he held them accountable and under the principle of indemnity he cannot recover from them and then a second time from you for the same loss. Further, the law usually bars someone for bringing more than one action for a loss. Therefore, it is more likely he would have sued the letting agent for the lost rent and the damage and they, in turn, would sue you to recover their outlay. Or, he could just have sued you directly and left the letting agent out of it. My bet is that he sued the letting agent because of the contract he had with them/reasonable assumption he would be more likely to win against them. Assuming he did. Have you checked with the letting agent/court records that he did actually sue them?

You were probably over generous in leaving your deposit to clear out the remainder of your possessions to be honest but that shows good faith. The absolute worst he could do is take you to the small claims court (the fee is quite small). Solicitors are usually not allowed here, hearings are brief. You could get a statement from your current or previous landlords that you have left or maintained properties in good repair. I'm betting he has no evidence of your "damage" so the whole thing would be done in under five minutes, four of which would be the Judge internally laughing at this case whilst trying to maintain a straight face.

The fact you paid something doesn't look great but you can explain that through fear of court proceedings and I doubt a Judge would seriously hold it against you.

Your old landlord is trying to bully you in short. Call his bluff - he won't get a penny!

Joesniff79

How would I find out if he went to court I am just taking his word for it as it stands..he says he is posting evidence pack out to me he says he has photos to prove I caused damage I have asked 6 people who helped me move and they say nothing was damaged as I say carpets were worn but over 4 years old with family of five using it..I have found advert for the house to let..kitchen has new Lino even though floor was tiled..no cooker on picture to let..in bathroom combo shower has been installed and description says house newly refurbished this was advertised 8 months after I left property

Dipak

Joesniff79 wrote: »

How would I find out if he went to court I am just taking his word for it as it stands..he says he is posting evidence pack out to me he says he has photos to prove I caused damage I have asked 6 people who helped me move and they say nothing was damaged as I say carpets were worn but over 4 years old with family of five using it..I have found advert for the house to let..kitchen has new Lino even though floor was tiled..no cooker on picture to let..in bathroom combo shower has been installed and description says house newly refurbished this was advertised 8 months after I left property

Can you get in touch with your old letting agent and confirm if he took them to court? If he says he did then they'll know about it and the outcome.

DonaldLMcVay

You cannot trust your letting agent. he might be trying to take advantage of you. Dont fret. seek legal advice rather than confronting him or confirming with him. What was he doing all these years?

Small_Yeti

Hi Joesniff,

I'm a bit more awake today so hopefully I'll be a bit more coherent! Firstly I thought I had typed that I was really sorry to hear about your situation yesterday but instead I just ploughed in. You've been through a lot and it must be horrible to be reminded of such a difficult time. So let's get this sorted and out of the way for you so you can concentrate on your three beautiful little ones.

Firstly, and most importantly, I really meant it when I said don't worry. I've seen plenty of court cases and if this action was coming up against meI really wouldn't lose any sleep over it at all. I know that must seem like it is very easy for me to type when you have to deal with this but honestly this is just extortion and bullying and he'll get nowhere.

So his "evidence pack". Bless his little heart, he's trying to make it sound all legal and intimidating. What he's actually sending you is a copy of some "documentation" he has cobbled together. Appropriate evidence that a Judge would consider would be an inventory signed by you when you moved in, an inventory prepared when you signed out and some evidence that you received a copy of this and/or that, had some damage (in excess of wear and tear) been occasioned, that a reasonable attempt had been made to contact you within a reasonable time frame with options discussed as to how best to indemnify the landlord (i.e. put in in the position he would have enjoyed had the damage not been occasioned - so if you ripped carpets he would be entitled to replacement carpets of a similar standard, but not better than the original, less a deduction for reasonable wear and tear - calculated as amount to replace with similar, divided by average lifespan of a carpet and the cost per year for the number of years the carpet had been in place would be deducted). None of this appears to have happened so he's got nothing. Even if his photos are date stamped then without other supporting evidence they will not stand as, frankly, I have cameras I could date stamp photos with back to 2005! Doesn't mean they were taken then - this would be easy to prove should it come to court (I'll help by providing examples of date stamp fraud if you need it).

You have six people who helped you to move - all of whom (or even some of whom if not all are contactable) can provide you with written witness statements detailing that the property was in a good state of repair when you left. This is very good evidence on your part.

I would recommend phoning the letting agents as you may find them very helpful. If he did sue them then you may find they are quite amenable to helping you out by providing details of the case - or they may confirm that no case was taken to court! Otherwise County Court records are public - find the nearest one to the letting agent, explain the situation briefly to them and they should be able to point you in the right direction. However, it will be quicker and easier to try the letting agents first.

What kind of relationship did you have with the letting agents? Did you only see them at the beginning of the tenancy e.g. they showed you round the flats, did the credit checks, etc and then you always dealt with the landlord direct afterwards or did you deal with them throughout the tenancy? If you dealt with them throughout the tenancy then it is likely they retained the responsibility to ensure satisfactory check out and if they failed to do this and did not raise any issues of "damage" with you then it is their professional negligence that becomes the issue as they have been paid to ensure that you left the property in a decent state of repair.

However, it may be that the letting agent can also provide you with a witness statement that states the property was in a state of good repair when you left, in which case he's pretty much snookered.

The fact that the property was re-rented in the interim period of you leaving and this attempt to wrangle money out of you will also not sit well with a Judge. If you can, get a hard copy of this to keep int he file with the witness statements. If you do not know how to or are having difficulty printing it I have ways around this issue I can talk you through.

At this stage I would await his "evidence pack" (*snort*) and see what he has (it'll be nothing - in fact you may not even get it because it may not exist - he may just be trying to intimidate you into paying by saying he has "evidence"). Then, once you have seen it, write back, keep it short and simple, dispute anything that you disagree with as caused by you, state that the property was not damaged in excess of reasonable wear and tear on your departure, that you have several witness statements from people that assisted your move and that you will not be paying any further funds. I would also mention that you consider the money you did pay should not have been provided and that you only did so because you felt threatened to do so having not been through the court process before and felt intimidated by the implication of immediate legal action.

Courts do not appreciate people immediately bringing action without a decent attempt at resolution first so if he wants to just go straight to court he'll find they are not impressed with his behaviour before he even starts. The Civil Procedure Rules (which would govern a case such as this) encourage use of court as an absolute last resort, whereas he is using it as a first threat.

Seriously, he would have to have something pretty compelling to get a penny out of you at this stage. Tell the bully to get stuffed and please don't worry. Also please keep us updated on how you're doing. As I said I'm not a Solicitor but I'm happy to help any way I can.

Joesniff79

Thankyou so much for your words.I keep thinking if I could of done anything more :-( unfortunately I have now moved to a new city I have moved twice since 2012..the letting agent did periodic checks of the property and checked off that it was to standard and all fine but I did not sign a inventory check when I left the property I have tried to get these periodic check list off them but they have said I would need to request my solicitor to get thesewhen I left I just gave in the keys and moved into my new house..as I say I never heard anything again until 2015 he emailed me so must have had this email address the whole time...I remarried last year and he started messaging my wife on Facebook telling her to get me to check my emails..he also said that he sees that I remarried and have started a new job..he says wedding looked expensive this means you can pay me again..I feel like I'm being harassed by him..he says he has found my new address from searching on 192.com and will send evidence pack to named address on there..on tenancy agreement it states that I should clean guttering and he is saying because it was not cleaned that has caused the leaking and the damp in kitchen..he says he needed to replace cooker..it was working fine when I left could probably have done with professional clean that is all..I am going to coucilling and this has knocked my confidence ..

Thankyou everyone for all your advice and help