A nasty one.

Hatamoto

Hi all.

I am involved in a rather nasty situation with a well known electronics dealer who I'd rather not name right now.

I believe they have breached my consumer rights AND tried to passively coerce me into committing insurance fraud with a courier, so that they can keep my money and so the courier coughs up.

Here's the story, sorry it's long.

I purchased an electronics product online from a distance and on receipt, I discovered a 'loose' internal problem as soon as I handled the unit. This made me box it right back up and contact them immediately via email about a return and refund. All on the same day I received it.

I explained the problem and I told them why the product was unacceptable and asked for a refund, not a replacement.

They were happy to help and I sent it back via a well known courier with a cover note and a copy of my receipt.

A few days pass. Using the courier tracking service, I see that the parcel I sent back to them has been delivered and signed for.

I send a polite email to them asking when my refund will be processed and I receive an email advising me that the refund will be processed within 48 hours.

Within an hour of that, I receive another email advising me that they are unable to refund my money because the unit has been "externally damaged during the return journey by the courier".

They include a photo of the damage and advice about how to make an insurance claim with the courier because it's the same courier who they used to send it. That's all in one email.

Because the unit arrived to me with the problem I found, I suggested that it would be fraudulent of me to claim my money back by means of an insurance claim with the courier and politely but firmly asked for a refund.

At this point in the same email thread as my original email with it all clearly still there, they tell me that "at no point have I advised them of a problem"

I reply telling them the exact date and time when I did advise them of the problem and that I entered into a contract with them and not the courier when I bought the product, and because the item arrived with a problem, the NEW problem that they advised me of, just makes the product even more unfit for use and it isn't something that the courier should be liable for.

I quote my consumer rights at them and they reply in a similar manner but slightly change their stance from "it was damaged by the courier" to "you must have damaged it before you boxed it up"

I reply suggesting to them that I will escalate matters if they do not refund my money and that they are obliged to provide me with a refund under the consumer rights act 2015.

They do not refund my money and again write me a rather hectoring email suggesting (yet again) that at no point have I advised them of a problem and that time is running out for me to claim on insurance because "that's how the system with the courier works".

They don't even bother or won't tread down their email where it is clear for anyone to see that I did advise them of a problem.

This is somewhat laughable after they blamed the courier, blamed me and then mentioned insurance again!

This has all taken place over about 8 working days.

I have been in touch with the fraud people at the courier who seem very interested in the case and I am led to believe that they are going to investigate it. The entire email exchange from start to finish has been forwarded on.

I don't believe for a second that they (the shop) simply forgot to read my first email telling them about the problem... I truly believe that they are trying to pull a fast one and do this a lot. They've come unstuck though, because I didn't want to make a claim with the courier.

The photo they sent of the damage is also rather shady looking and looks as if the part could easily be repaired or replaced.

Please can anyone advise me of what else they would do in this situation and who to contact?

Is the consumer rights ombudsman any good?

Could I contact the police? is this a fraud case?

Any help would be really appreciated.

Thank you very much for your time.

H

unholyangel

Who entered into the contract with the courier for the return?

Did you choose them and pay for the return? Or did the retailer arrange a prepaid label?

Hatamoto

Thanks for the reply unholyangel

I paid for the return, I really shouldn't have done, but I suppose I was happy to be offered a refund and felt happy to do so.

naedanger

Hatamoto wrote: »

Thanks for the reply unholyangel

I paid for the return, I really shouldn't have done, but I suppose I was happy to be offered a refund and felt happy to do so.

Did they instruct you to use that courier? (If so do you have evidence e.g. an email?)

How did you pay for the item and was it worth over £100?

unholyangel

Hatamoto wrote: »

I paid for the return, I really shouldn't have done, but I suppose I was happy to be offered a refund and felt happy to do so.

The goods remain at your risk (in other words, you were liable for any damage that happened to them) up until the retailers agent take possession of them.

If the retailer arranges the return courier, then the courier is their agent and your liability ends when the courier collects the item. However as you arranged the courier, the courier is acting as your agent and thus, you are liable for their failings (to the retailer anyway, the courier company obviously have liability to you as their customer).

bris

Playing devils advocate here, the retailer receives an item back with physical damage, this is not what they were expecting. For all they know this is the reason for the fault in the first place and as accidental damage is not covered they will not give you a refund.


Your refusal to get the courier involved is a little puzzling to me tbh as there is no reason not to. You are responsible for getting it back to them in one piece, you failed and now it's you who needs to put this right with the courier. Why on earth would you think this is fraud on their part

Hatamoto

I chose to use the courier because I knew I could easily use them from my local post office in my small rural town. Their email simply said "send it back to us with a copy of your receipt and a cover note and we'll process your refund"

They didn't specify a courier.

Can I just repeat that the unit arrived to me already in a state unfit for use with something rolling around the inside of it and I didn't even bother to plug it in.

I paid for the return, the courier collected it and the retailer suggests days later that it has been externally damaged on the way back whilst ignoring what I told them about how it actually arrived to me.

it was damaged/broken before it got to me (maybe not by the courier either)

Then, according to the shop, it was damaged externally during the return, then they blame me for damaging it and tell me I never told them there was an initial problem, when I clearly did. Then mention insurance again.

I'm interested how they think that a claim should be made by me for the return damage, because if what they say was true, the item has simply become more damaged than when it arrived.

That's why I would think it is fraud, and the fraudulent person would be me, because in order to make a claim and be taken seriously, I'd have to not mention that the unit arrived to me already damaged anyway.

I just don't see how a courier are liable to reimburse me for a product that was sold to me with an internal problem but was damaged in a different way during the return.

I see it as a point which should not be ignored but to me it is additional to the fact that I was sold broken goods and I'm not sure how the return damage affects my rights as a consumer OR waives the retailers responsibility of a refund at the same time.

I'm sure you all know better than me.

it's worth several hundred pounds.

Happy for you to play devils advocate, bris. Thank you.

naedanger

Hatamoto wrote: »

I chose to use the courier because I knew I could easily use them from my local post office in my small rural town. Their email simply said "send it back to us with a copy of your receipt and a cover note and we'll process your refund"

They didn't specify a courier.

Can I just repeat that the unit arrived to me already in a state unfit for use with something rolling around the inside of it and I didn't even bother to plug it in.

I paid for the return, the courier collect it and the retailer suggests days later that it has been externally damaged on the way back whilst ignoring what I told them about how it actually arrived to me.

it was damaged/broken before it got to me (maybe not by the courier either)

Then, according to the shop, it was damaged externally during the return, then they blame me for damaging it and tell me I never told them there was an initial problem, when I clearly did. Then mention insurance again.

I'm interested how they think that a claim should be made by me for the return damage, because if what they say was true, the item has simply become more damaged than when it arrived.

That's why i would think it is is fraud, and the fraudulent person would be me, because in order to make a claim and be taken seriously, I'd have to not mention that the unit arrived to me already damaged anyway.

Happy for you to play devils advocate, bris.

If you are in dispute with the company they could refuse to pay no matter how good your case. In which case you could either sue them, or if you paid by credit card, and as the item was worth more than £100 then you could hold your credit card company liable. (It is easier holding your credit card company to account. I will explain more if relevant to your case.)

If you didn't pay by credit card, and I was in your position, I would write to the supplier explaining that firstly they needed to refund me for the faulty item they sent and if they did not do so that I would be taking legal action.

I would secondly explain that I did not believe I had any liability arising from the return of the faulty item because it had been returned to them in its original packaging, using the original courier and that I had evidence it had been received by them without them noting any damage to the packaging with the courier. If the item was further damaged it would therefore seem this most likely happened sometime after it was delivered or their packaging was inadequate.

I would then swot up on taking legal action:

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/CJC/Publications/Other+papers/Small+Claims+Guide+for+web+FINAL.pdf

unholyangel

Was the item damaged when it was delivered to you or was it just faulty?

As for why you should make a claim....if your agent had carried out their duties with reasonable care and skill, the retailer could have potentially returned the item to the manufacturer for a replacement/repair. Nor will they be able to test the goods to see whether the fault is inherent or not. So not just a case of it being slightly more damaged.

Hatamoto

Thanks again.

There was no evidence of damage to the packaging when it arrived so I couldn't say how or where it was damaged. The result was a likely dangerous product in any case.

I told the retailer within minutes of that.

I added a bit more to my previous post whilst you were replying.

All of this has gone to the courier, so in a way I am making a claim, but I am making the claim and suggesting that certain things do not add up.

The timing, the wording, the changing of stance and the aggression in their emails to me make me feel as if something is not right.

So, it is not as if I haven't made a claim, I've told the courier honestly that the product was already broken and that the retailer suggested that I should make a claim for the return damage without considering any of what I've told them, which does stink, no matter how you slice it.

I used a debit card unfortunately. I do not have a credit card.

unholyangel

From what you have said, they are two separate issues. I can understand why you think its unfair though so I'll try to explain as best I can.

Your agent (the courier) failed to carry out their contractual obligations with reasonable care & skill resulting in physical damage to the item in question. This physical damage has also negated the possibility of you proving the goods were inherently faulty. Therefore their negligence has caused you a loss and thus they are liable.

You are potentially shooting yourself in the foot by involving the whole he said/she said aspect and picking faults in their story. If the courier are claiming the goods were delivered undamaged then fair enough it might become relevant. But until that happens, my advice would be to focus purely on the facts and leave out any speculation about how the damage may have come about.