The Baroness and the triple lock!

xylophone

How about a single lock? Pensions go up with the earnings inflation index

This was once the case.

https://next.ft.com/content/6f8531d6-ddfd-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de

bigadaj

Sapphire wrote: »

Have you any idea how little the state pension is (the lowest in Europe), and just how badly off and vulnerable some pensioners are, and that after decades of working and being productive? They have no means of increasing their income, while younger people certainly do. No one who is old and vulnerable deserves to live on the breadline.

I'm not talking about pensioners who have additional assets – certainly, it might be an idea for those in the higher income brackets to be subjected to this, or to even forego their pensions altogether. But that will never happen, because it would affect only the wealthiest in society. It's the poorest people, who have contributed all their lives, who would have to suffer. :cool:

I think voting patterns would definitely alter should the government introduce such a change, affecting all pensioners, rather than just affluent ones. There are other ways of raising money that don't affect the poorest in society…

How would you raise money or introduce cuts?

zagfles

Sapphire wrote: »

Have you any idea how little the state pension is (the lowest in Europe), and just how badly off and vulnerable some pensioners are, and that after decades of working and being productive? They have no means of increasing their income, while younger people certainly do. No one who is old and vulnerable deserves to live on the breadline.

I'm not talking about pensioners who have additional assets – certainly, it might be an idea for those in the higher income brackets to be subjected to this, or to even forego their pensions altogether. But that will never happen, because it would affect only the wealthiest in society. It's the poorest people, who have contributed all their lives, who would have to suffer. :cool:

I think voting patterns would definitely alter should the government introduce such a change, affecting all pensioners, rather than just affluent ones. There are other ways of raising money that don't affect the poorest in society…

QED. The usual sanctimonious ranting that doesn't address the point.

Why is it you think that pensioners should get a real terms increase in their state pension when inflation is low, but not when inflation is high? Do you really think that makes sense?

Or perhaps pensioners should get real terms increases whether inflation is low or high. If so tell us how it will be funded as it will be massively expensive.

Or perhaps we should go back to a lower state pension with more means testing, which was pretty much universally rejected across the political spectrum because it would discourage saving for everyone on a low-mid income.

Nick_C

Sapphire wrote: »

Have you any idea how [STRIKE]little[/STRIKE] much the state pension is [STRIKE](the lowest in Europe)[/STRIKE], and just how badly off and vulnerable some pensioners are, and that after decades of working and being productive? They have no means of increasing their income, while younger people certainly do. No one who is old and vulnerable deserves to live on the breadline.

Yes. I understand how much the State Pension is, and the support that is given to our poorest pensioners.

Pension Credit means that a single pensioner has £155 a week after paying their rent and most of their council tax. This is twice as much as a single unemployed person under pensionable age has. Pensioners also get free bus passes, free prescriptions, and winter fuel allowance.

Some pensioners continue to work and increase their income, and many people in work do not have the means to increase their income.

Pensioners have been given real term increases in their income, while many people who go out to work have seen their pay cut in real terms over the last 8 years.

People who work get to keep less of their income than pensioners, because many workers are paying NICs and pension contributions. Add to this the cost of travelling to work, buying lunches out, and buying clothes for work.

Our state pension is not the lowest in Europe.

The UK ranks above Latvia, the Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Poland and Estonia. - See more at: https://www.nutmeg.com/nutmegonomics/the-state-pension-uk-vs-europe/#sthash.42qb6EC7.dpuf

And these comparisons tend to use the basic state pension level, not the much higher safety net provided by Pension Credit and Housing Benefit.

JezR

kidmugsy wrote: »

How about a single lock? Pensions go up with the earnings inflation index: I don't see an objection unless you think that pensioners are somehow entitled to better protection against price inflation than workers get.

That is the position in law, at least as far as the basic / new state pensions are concerned. Anything above that it at the discretion of the Government.

Altmann was talking about dropping down to a double lock post 2020, recognising that the triple lock had been promised within the manifesto. Apparently she was making this point within government circles for the past year.

Sapphire

bigadaj wrote: »

How would you raise money or introduce cuts?

It's not up to me – but it is well known, for example, that many millionaires and billionaires syphon off money and pay very little tax (if any). Put up taxes for higher rate taxpayers, who are much better off than poor pensioners, and who, despite moaning about how poor they are, have many more luxuries than pensioners ever did when they were working. Stop paying state pensions to those paying higher rate tax. Stop wasting money on foreign aid that is pocketed only by the very rich. There are many more ideas that could be employed.

Condemning the most vulnerable group, pensioners who are not well off, to poverty and destitution – after a hard-working (and hard) life in many case – would be cruel and heartless, and is not the way. I see this as someone who has seen parents and grandparents existing, and ending their lives, on a pittance. I'm sure you will expect the same as current pensioners when you enter old age, if you already have not (as an affluent pensioner).:cool:

Sapphire

Nick_C wrote: »

The UK ranks above Latvia, the Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Poland and Estonia. - See more at: https://www.nutmeg.com/nutmegonomics/the-state-pension-uk-vs-europe/#sthash.42qb6EC7.dpuf

And these comparisons tend to use the basic state pension level, not the much higher safety net provided by Pension Credit and Housing Benefit.

And what is the cost of living in those countries, barring (perhaps) the Netherlands? :rotfl:

As far as a 'pension credit' is concerned, neither my parents nor my grandparents had this, because they were just above the point where they could receive it.

People who have put in all their lives, had a strong work ethic, worked for decades in jobs that many people in the indigenous population now refuse to take (despite having first lost everything), and not relied on benefits should not suffer hardship in their old age.

Nick_C

Sapphire wrote: »

And what is the cost of living in those countries, barring (perhaps) the Netherlands? :rotfl:

Are you laughing at your own ignorance, or laughing in embarrassment because your statement that our pensions are the lowest in Europe was clearly incorrect?

I don't know what the cost of living is in each of those countries, although from personal experience I have found Denmark to be pretty expensive.

If you want to find out, the information is readily available, and it would be good for you to have some facts for you to base your opinions on. Google is your friend.

As to the issue of comparing the value of state pensions across the EU, the cost of living is irrelevant. The comparator used is basic state pension as a percentage of the average salary for working people.

The study was carried out using data from 2012, and of course UK pensions have risen since then in real terms.

Some of the most generous pensions were being paid by those countries least able to afford it - Greece, Spain and Portugal. Food for thought.

kidmugsy

There's no use banging on about the lack of regard that the welfare state has for moral questions. That was introduced by the post-war Labour government as a design feature of its reformed welfare state.

Beveridge said that such changes would do a lot of mischief, and he was right. But would any party that wanted to remedy things get elected? Not a chance.

AnotherJoe

kidmugsy wrote: »

How about a single lock? Pensions go up with the earnings inflation index: I don't see an objection unless you think that pensioners are somehow entitled to better protection against price inflation than workers get.

I think that is indeed a key point of the argument, that they are so entitled, the reasoning for this being that a worker can do something to change their pay (in theory !) whereas a pensioner cannot.