State Pension - please help **Update again**

saver861

xylophone wrote: »

Then your grandmother can make a formal complaint in writing.

I would agree. I do think you need to make a formal complaint about this. I think I mentioned in a previous post that there should have been several follow ups on this to determine your GF's situation. One letter and visit would not nearly cover it and your visitor confirmed that. Usually there it is too much red tape rather than not enough.

In terms of the Tax, I think first thing I would do is work out the worst case scenario and budget from there to start the alterations. I'm guessing there wont be a great deal in it at the end of the day but it could take some time to get all this sorted out.

I'd be furious about this and I think I would be writing to the top of the tree asking for investigation. If not you can tell him/her you just might ask the press to look into it.

It sounds like your are doing a cracking job for your GF though and if the authorities had expended a fraction of that effort then the mess would not have occurred.

They have a duty to investigate and I would be making sure they done that. I know thats not the priority at the moment but getting to the right people might help get the residue sorted out sooner.

hec2308

xylophone wrote: »

Then your grandmother can make a formal complaint in writing.

Yep I will be working on this with her at the weekend as well as digging out all the various paperwork you have mentioned below. Unfortunately since my grandfather has been in hospital the visiting times are 3 pm until 8 pm so during the week we are spending our evenings there and I'm only able to make progress with these matters at the weekends.

xylophone wrote: »

I had understood from what you said previously that he has received no state pension at all for 36 (?) months?[/B]

That is correct. Payments ceased in August 2013, they have been backdated since 9th September 2013.

xylophone wrote: »

It has come back into payment in this tax year as has the lump sum - for taxation see link above - I am assuming that tax has already been taken on the lump sum?

No I can't see that it has been taken on the lump sum of £17,226.30 which has been paid. I called DWP asking for a more specific breakdown of what this payment consists of and they gave me the following SP figures:

• 9th Sept 2013 - 5th April 2014 = £3,708.60
• 6th April 2014 - 5th April 2015 = £6,688
• 6th April 2015 - 5th April 2016 = £6,886.80

Only issue here is that these figures add up to £17,283.40 which is not the figure that was paid and doesn't equate to tax being taken off at source. And when I spoke to HMRC last night they said that it was DWP who issued them with the figures which do not match on the P800s.

xylophone wrote: »

Look back on P60's and P800s and P2s for the years when his state pension was being paid correctly.

His tax code for those years shows his Personal Allowance, that is to say the amount he is allowed to "earn" before paying any tax.

As he was probably in receipt of married couples' allowance this is likely to have been higher than the standard personal allowance.

Was he entitled to any other allowances?

No I'm sure it's just the married couples' allowance and his standard personal allowance.

xylophone wrote: »

State pension is taxable income as is his occupational pension.

State Pension is paid gross - any tax due is collected by means of an adjustment to the tax code on the occupational pension.

Yes I believe that this is what was happening before (will find the paperwork to confirm) as my grandmother mentioned that my grandfather's annuity suddenly went up a bit a few years ago. I'm assuming that this is because the State Pension stopped and his private pension was not adjusted to pay the tax on it. I'm going to send off a Letter of Authority for the annuity just to confirm everything.

xylophone wrote: »

I am assuming from your previous posts that up to the beginning of this tax year, your grandfather's non isa interest has always been paid net of 20% tax which is probably correct but you can check this.

I do believe that this is the case but won't leave anything to chance!

xylophone wrote: »

You need to check whether your grandfather has overpaid tax on his personal pension from the time that he ceased receiving his state pension.

I don't think that this is an issue as, as mentioned previously, his annuity payment did increase slightly a few years ago according to my grandmother. But will check it all.

saver861 wrote: »

I'd be furious about this and I think I would be writing to the top of the tree asking for investigation. If not you can tell him/her you just might ask the press to look into it.

I really wanted to avoid being one of those "I'm going to the press!!!" people but I'm seriously getting there! Fortunately my mother is a journalist so the contacts are there, now may be the time to use them.

saver861 wrote: »

It sounds like your are doing a cracking job for your GF though and if the authorities had expended a fraction of that effort then the mess would not have occurred.

They have a duty to investigate and I would be making sure they done that. I know thats not the priority at the moment but getting to the right people might help get the residue sorted out sooner.

Thank you very much. I just wish I could get one thing tied up neatly and move onto the next but it all feels a bit of a jumble.

xylophone

Regarding the State Pension payments - it seems to me that as your grandfather's pension "stopped", this was equivalent to a "de-retirement"?

That is to say, should your grandfather be treated as though he had opted to defer his state pension for a period?

https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/what-you-get

See and read carefully all information and links here http://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/pensioners-and-tax/what-tax-do-i-pay-my-state-pension-lump-sum

Has he simply been paid the pension he should have received without any interest? Is there additional money to come?

It seems that your grandfather's payments ceased in September 2013.

Look in his records for his letters from DWP concerning the increase in State pension which he would have received in March each year.

The last one would have been in March 2013 - you could also look at those for the previous couple of years.

In this way you will be able to ascertain what your grandfather should have been receiving by way of state pension.

Checking his P2s/P800s for earlier years should throw some light on his tax position.

Yes I believe that this is what was happening before (will find the paperwork to confirm) as my grandmother mentioned that my grandfather's annuity suddenly went up a bit a few years ago. I'm assuming that this is because the State Pension stopped and his private pension was not adjusted to pay the tax on it. I'm going to send off a Letter of Authority for the annuity just to confirm everything.

I'm afraid that it does seem to me that your grandmother was not quite "on top of" your grandfather's financial affairs.

I am not quite sure why this " Letter of Authority" should be needed?

If you go through your grandfather's papers ( you say that all documentation has been kept), you should be able to establish the full facts about his private/occupational (?) pension.

There should be a letter detailing what he has, the nature of the pension, when it came into payment and when/how/if/ it increases in payment.

You mentioned before that your partner is an accountant so he should be able to assist with all of this.

Another thought - there are benefit experts at CAB - you may find that an appointment with one of them will help clarify the issues?

hec2308

xylophone wrote: »

Regarding the State Pension payments - it seems to me that as your grandfather's pension "stopped", this was equivalent to a "de-retirement"?

That is to say, should your grandfather be treated as though he had opted to defer his state pension for a period?

https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/what-you-get

See and read carefully all information and links here http://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/pensioners-and-tax/what-tax-do-i-pay-my-state-pension-lump-sum

Thank you for that. Certainly interesting, will have to query this...

xylophone wrote: »

Has he simply been paid the pension he should have received without any interest? Is there additional money to come?

They have not clarified this with me, I will try to get an answer to that today when I call them again.

xylophone wrote: »

I'm afraid that it does seem to me that your grandmother was not quite "on top of" your grandfather's financial affairs.

I know I just wish she had asked me back then if she knew it seemed a bit odd. She probably didn't feel she could as I was 23 at the time and we had only just bought our house so we were quite stressed out, but I still would have done what I could.

xylophone wrote: »

I am not quite sure why this " Letter of Authority" should be needed?

If you go through your grandfather's papers ( you say that all documentation has been kept), you should be able to establish the full facts about his private/occupational (?) pension.

There should be a letter detailing what he has, the nature of the pension, when it came into payment and when/how/if/ it increases in payment.

It would purely be for my benefit and peace of mind going forward as opposed to dealing with what has happened in hindsight. It would just mean that I can use the resources I have at work to keep an eye on it, so if any correspondence is received about this kind of thing in the future I will know straight away.

xylophone wrote: »

Another thought - there are benefit experts at CAB - you may find that an appointment with one of them will help clarify the issues?

Fab, I will take a look at that now!

hec2308

hec2308 wrote: »

No I can't see that it has been taken on the lump sum of £17,226.30 which has been paid. I called DWP asking for a more specific breakdown of what this payment consists of and they gave me the following SP figures:

• 9th Sept 2013 - 5th April 2014 = £3,708.60
• 6th April 2014 - 5th April 2015 = £6,688
• 6th April 2015 - 5th April 2016 = £6,886.80

Only issue here is that these figures add up to £17,283.40 which is not the figure that was paid and doesn't equate to tax being taken off at source. And when I spoke to HMRC last night they said that it was DWP who issued them with the figures which do not match on the P800s.

So I have spoken to someone else much more helpful at DWP this afternoon, she has confirmed that the actual breakdown of payments is as follows:

• 9th Sept 2013 - 5th April 2014 = £3,708.60
• 6th April 2014 - 5th April 2015 = £6,600.88
• 6th April 2015 - 5th April 2016 = £6,886.82

There is also a tax-free Christmas bonus of £10 per year which I wasn't aware of, so £30 on top of this, and that brings us to the magical payment of £17,226.30. So at least that is now ONE thing that adds up. Will come back to the tax side of things once I have dug everything out but can now at least give HMRC the correct figures.

xylophone

Have you looked into whether this is being treated as "deferral" and whether there is any more to come?

See this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71066585#Comment_71066585

If you look at your grandfather's state pension statement for 2013-14, what does it show for Basic State Pension/ Additional State Pension/ Graduated Pension etc?

hec2308

Nope I ran out of lunch break earlier but I'm going to call them again about deferral at half 5. Trying to find the energy, my brain is a bit like jelly today!

xylophone

Trying to find the energy, my brain is a bit like jelly today!

It is very difficult to be plunged into another person's financial affairs, particularly when the person concerned (or his/ her carer), is unable to help very much.

You mentioned your mother- is she able to help at all, or are you dealing with your "paternals" where such input might not be welcome?

hec2308

As my mother is self-employed in a career that seems to be heading towards extinction she works pretty much solid all day every day. As I'm employed pretty much 9-5 it's a bit easier for me to finish the day and deal with other things!

I've just spoken to the DWP again, no his SP won't be treated as if it were deferred and all payments have now been made, so nothing else is pending. Very frustrating, but I have the address for a formal complaint and will see what I can do!

saver861

hec2308 wrote: »

I really wanted to avoid being one of those "I'm going to the press!!!" people but I'm seriously getting there! Fortunately my mother is a journalist so the contacts are there, now may be the time to use them.

If possible you want to avoid going to the press - I mention more of a threat rather than reality. If further down the line you feel you need to then do so.

hec2308 wrote: »

Thank you very much. I just wish I could get one thing tied up neatly and move onto the next but it all feels a bit of a jumble.

I think that is the issue. Reading the posts it seems some progress is being made with xylophone's help and links. Maybe the thing to do is to get the figures sorted out and then work on the complaint. At least, you have the money so you can move things forward. I'd be less worried about what I owe them given the scenario you have been through and would work on getting the alterations done for GF to come home.