PCN and moved house

busby3000

Apologies if this has been asked but I can't find anything on here.

I received a PCN from a private company (Vehicle Control Services) for overstaying my 2 hrs free parking by 24 minutes. I moved house and this went to the old address. I understand that in the absence of a notice on the car (it was recorded by ANPR cameras) that this notice can serve as a NTK. So do I contact them to give them my new address?

Half_way

Why did you get a parking charge notice, and where was it issued?

busby3000

As I said, for overstaying 2 hrs free parking by 26 mins. It arrived by post 11 days later. At St Andrew's Retail Park in Hull

Quentin

You do need to ensure they have your correct address for fear you end up with a CCJ by default should they go down the court route by corresponding to your wrong address in your ignorance

Read up on what to do in the Newbies FAQ thread at the top of the forum

busby3000

I have read the Newbies thread. It has been a great help for dealing with another case which is at debt collector (dcbl) stage.

Newbies thread says to wait for NTK, but in the absence of a ticket on the car I believe that a PCN sent by post is the same thing? I will send a letter I guess giving new address and reasoning for not agreeing with their "invoice" etc as per newbies thread

Coupon-mad

Yes a PCN by post is the same thing.

What happened when you complained to the Store Manager(s) of the retailers where the occupants of the car shopped? They should be able to cancel the PCN or tell you who the managing agents are who can.

Don't ask too 'nicely' - be assertive and clear that you want this PCN cancelled (not saying be rude, but bear in mind this is a threat of court basically). My view is, why the heck should ANYONE put up with that for shopping and maybe just being held up by 15 mins in a queue at a till?! It is NEVER too late to march in and complain; we've seen them cancelled a year later by retailers.

busby3000

Thanks Coupon-mad. on the advice from the Newbies thread, I went into 3 of the retailers and spoke to the Store Managers. They all appear to rent so are unable (unwilling?) to help. I was in several shops that day (as I said, just moved house, needed furniture and all sorts!) B&M was most helpful and gave me the email address for when they have a problem in the car park - appears to be for GBR Phoenix Beard.

Yes, the signs are in abundance and clearly state the 2 hour limit. However I guess £100 would be termed "disproportionate & excessive" and the onus on them to prove loss or damage.

While you're on coupon-mad, I just wanted to also say thanks for your very helpful link elsewhere re NPS & HFM which pertains to the other tickets my daughter has (she paid, has proof, but at debt collector stage) - I know - 1 post, 1 case, but very useful to find! This forum has been invaluable thanks to all regulars.

Coupon-mad

However I guess £100 would be termed "disproportionate & excessive" and the onus on them to prove loss or damage.

Nope, that argument was thrown in the bin by the Judges in the Supreme Court in November when they moved the goalposts and effectively set a binding precedent when they lapped up ParkingEye's 'business model' which was hardly even evidenced at the hearings AFAIK... our top court in the land decided to give this entire (partly ex-clamper) industry the green light for parking charges because they believed that PE had more commercial justification than Mr Beavis had consumer rights...in a nutshell.

One of the most embarrassingly ridiculous pro 'FAT CAT' and anti-consumer decisions the Supreme Court has made (not that I know of many, but that one took the biscuit). Barry Beavis was supported by the Consumer Association and the decision was handed down in National Consumers Week (and he only overstayed due to a retailer delay by Staples, who wanted the charge cancelled) but that counted for zilch.

Only one Judge on the panel said 'no, it's not OK, it is a disproportionate penalty' but the others swallowed the 'legitimate interest' idea and spouted it, thereby encouraging all the money-grabbing bully-boy hangers-on in this nasty industry to sue people and rip off unsuspecting drivers every day of the week.

busby3000

Yes - interesting case!!! Amazed that Staples couldn't get it cancelled (HFM quotes it on the back of their scare "notice of intended court action" letters) However different results from other court cases since, no?

So what reasoning can I give? Or just send a proportionate amount? Beavis had to pay £85 for 1 hr overstay, so at £1.41 per minute 24 mins would be £33.84!

Redx

I dont know of any other legally binding court cases to which you refer

the Beavis case was the Supreme Court so binding on lower courts, others are mere county court and not binding

the NEWBIES thread has templates for these initial appeals, so use the IPC one

you dont have to give a reason for anything, just challenge their PCN invoice, as KEEPER, not driver

the PPC wont accept lower amounts at this stage, they baited their honeytrap and the driver fell for it

a landowner cancellation is the best option (as well as one initial appeal)

Coupon-mad

Staples were asked too late (after court claim forms) in the Beavis case.

However different results from other court cases since, no?

Yes, there are defences that still work but NOT anything about the amount of the charge having to be justified, not if it's the usual £100 PCN or less. Really it is a disgrace that the Judges fell for it and they had no idea what the repercussions would be (maybe they didn't care, who knows).

Seeing as the Code of Practice allows ten minutes grace period, your 'crime' was at most, 14 minutes (and that's if we believe the synching of the ANPR system, multiple cameras and clocks). Luckily for you, this was VCS not Excel, who at the moment are not litigious. I can only recall two current court claims and at least one was where the OP didn't reply to a Letter of Claim, so no doubt BW Legal proceeded in the hope of a default CCJ from an ignorer (they've now bitten off more than they might be able to chew as the case is on pepipoo forum!).

As you are emailing VCS anyway - their email addy is on their letters, better evidence than posting a letter snail mail - I would just give them the new address and point out that you are aware they cannot hold a registered keeper liable under their NTK wording, so you consider the matter closed. With VCS it would be pointless making an offer and it's not as if there is an unpaid tariff that you could offer and you are not saying who was driving.

Here is someone on pepipoo with a BW Legal letter (which you may get later on):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107048

So you could adapt (I've changed it quite a bit) Gan's suggested reply and just send this to VCS:




Dear VCS,

PCN Ref: xxxxxxxxxx VRN xxxxxxx

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/2016, how ever it arrived at my previous address as I recently moved. You are required to note that my current address is

** xxxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxx


I deny any debt to VCS and you have failed to evidence who was driving on the occasion you allege a 'parking charge' became due. As VCS choose or fail to utilise the statutory wording in the The Protection of Freedoms Act, Schedule 4, you have no right to pursue me for payment. Do not insult my intelligence with a reply citing the irrelevant criminal case of 'Elliot v Loake' where the driver was evidenced beyond doubt. That is not the case here.

The matter is therefore closed and the Data Protection Act requires that you now delete my records and cease processing my data and that of the vehicle. Consider this a Section 10 Notice under the DPA and I will complain to the ICO if you fail to act accordingly.

Please also take note that, from this point on, I will keep a record of any time I have to spend on the matter, plus my expenses, should you persist. Any claim against me would be unreasonable and vexatious and as an unrepresented consumer I will seek my full costs at the LiP rate of £19 per hour if forced to defend any ill-advised court action.

Yours Faithfully