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World Trade Organisation Rules
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No, not inconsistent. A lot of low wage jobs are moving from developed nations to developing nations. We also have automation in the mix.
This will suppress wages no matter what people think about free movement from the EU.
given your view that incomes are falling anyway due to global pressures, it seems a little strange to celebrate immigration that further suppresses wages.0 -
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No one on the remain side will ever answer this question, because as soon as they do they would also have to answer the follow up '...and what happens if we go over that number?'
A google about and it seems the leadership candidates seem somewhat coy about expressing a target immigration level.0 -
All those aspiring to be tory leader have stated free movement will be restricted in future.
I'm happy with controlled immigration that is beneficial to us.
Obviously it was in their manifesto in 2015 and 2010 and it has worked well so far.
Do you think a majority of the country want to stop EU immigration? The 48% clearly did not favour that and some of the 52% will have favoured solutions like Norway has. The country voted for Brexit, not for abusing people who can speak a foreign language or look foreign, not for controlling immigration at all costs. I agree many thought that Leave was a chance to do all of this but that was not the question. A Norway arrangement with the EU would satisfy most people.
That said I do not object to the next PM negotiating to have more control on immigration, but some of the 52% will never be satisfied unless everyone with a European accent is deported.
I quite like the idea of pursing Freedom of Movement to a defined job or study opportunity, no right to claim benefits for 3 years, no right of residence without a formal application. Whether the EU is flexible enough to do this who knows but if it is true that Norway, Switzerland are already discussing that sort of arrangement and that some EU nations are unhappy with the present rules.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
But you know perfectly well that such a change is not possible. It was made clear to DC that there would be no concessions on free movement.
Such a change is possible and Cameron clearly tried to move in that direction. Yes they said no, but what if they had said yes? Would we have voted Remain? I suspect we would.
The problem is that the EU has a vision of political and economic integration, even though many of the nations have doubts about it in varying ways. Britain has always been a pragmatic Nation: perceived bureaucracy and freedom of labour have (until now) been "the price we have to pay" for the economic advantages of the EU. Spurred on by about 10% of the electorate (devout supporters of UKIP and the Conservative right), the referendum encouraged us to ditch pragmatism for idealism (control our borders, regain our freedom etc). This idealism led a disenchanted electorate to blame the EU for all their problems, blame immigrants, disbelieve experts, and choose to head for some sunny upland in which all their problems would go away.
One of the most statemanlike things Cameron has ever done was to resign and initiate a period of reflection in the UK and EU. We need to work out a plan for what we want. They must have a fight between the idealists who think the principles are sacrosant (no change to freedom of movement) and pragmatism (can we keep Britain in the EU or at least the EEA) If the idealists in the EU win then I think the EU is also finished. The pragmatists know that Freedom of Movement was never intended to promote nationalism and xenophobia in the EU, yet it will unless the principles are more flexible.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
Obviously it was in their manifesto in 2015 and 2010 and it has worked well so far.
The 48% clearly did not favour that and some of the 52% will have favoured solutions like Norway has.
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it is logically possible, that some of the 48% voted remain, without necessarially supporting free movement but instead thought it a price worth paying, for stopping WW3 or some other catastrophe.
Mad thought it seems to you, maybe some actually believed the BoE, IMF, CBI, Cameron etc and were afraid for the coming financial collapse.
Of course, it is also possible thet every remain voter had exactly the same objectives and it was only the leave that were muddled, confused and had conflicting and confused objectives.0 -
Such a change is possible and Cameron clearly tried to move in that direction. Yes they said no, but what if they had said yes? Would we have voted Remain? I suspect we would.
If Cameron had come back with something even reasonably substantial to restrict immigration then there would have been a landslide remain vote and all this uncertainty would have never existed.
The EU member countries chose to not bend on this issue. That is their right.
They must also therefore take some responsibility for the leave vote and understand that it is at least partially a consequence of their inflexibility and inability to listen to the concerns of their electorate across the continent.0 -
Such a change is possible and Cameron clearly tried to move in that direction. Yes they said no, but what if they had said yes?
Anything, is possible. The whole process is going to take years and there is a French election early next year and a German election late on in the year. Who even knows which politicians will be involved in negotiations.
I don't want a fudge, however, immigration must be brought down for the sake of British harmony.What do we do when we fall? We get up, dust ourselves off and start walking in the right direction again. Perhaps when we fall, it is easy to forget there are people along the way who help us stand and walk with us as we get back on track.0 -
This idealism led a disenchanted electorate
The electorate weren't disenchanted so much as realizing they had been disenfranchised !!! Wanting to control immigration shines a light on the fact that Europe is undemocratic. That the voters/people no longer can control their government's actions. That the politicians can speak out saying they want to control immigration whilst underhandedly controlling the EU council and Commission to ensure that this doesn't happen.
And what happens when voters try to do something about it - they threaten them with trade sanctions.
It Stinks!What do we do when we fall? We get up, dust ourselves off and start walking in the right direction again. Perhaps when we fall, it is easy to forget there are people along the way who help us stand and walk with us as we get back on track.0 -
it is logically possible, that some of the 48% voted remain, without necessarially supporting free movement but instead thought it a price worth paying, for stopping WW3 or some other catastrophe.
Mad thought it seems to you, maybe some actually believed the BoE, IMF, CBI, Cameron etc and were afraid for the coming financial collapse.
Of course, it is also possible thet every remain voter had exactly the same objectives and it was only the leave that were muddled, confused and had conflicting and confused objectives.
I voted Remain.
However, I think the lack of democracy in the EU sucks. Worse - I never wanted to be part of a United States of Europe and I think it's disgusting that we didn't have a referendum in 1993 when John Major and his cronies signed The Maastricht Treaty.
Yet, I voted Remain because I couldn't be responsible for loads of people losing their jobs in the event of a recession.What do we do when we fall? We get up, dust ourselves off and start walking in the right direction again. Perhaps when we fall, it is easy to forget there are people along the way who help us stand and walk with us as we get back on track.0
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