How to vote in the EU referendum

MSE_Eesha

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's "How to vote in the EU referendum" Blog.

Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.

pphillips

Its regrettable that Martin has written a biased article in favour of remain, in which he highlights the risks of leaving the EU and misses out the risks of staying. There are lots of reasons why staying in the EU would be economical damaging for the UK that he has chosen not to mention. These include things such as TTIP, the EU taxpayer ID system, future EU bailouts and what membership will cost when more countries join the EU. In addition, with the free movement of people within the EU, there is currently high immigration into the UK which is causing an increase in rent and house prices and a reduction in wages. Therefore I can't understand how Martin 'the Moneysavingexpert' could believe that on balance we would be better off by staying inside the EU.

jamesd

Not sure that Full Fact caught everything in respect of the "too small to bother with" wording, which seems rather unlikely for the world's fifth largest economy that's recently been forecast to potentially overtake Japan and Germany even if that forecast didn't materialise after an exit.

Interesting to see the financial and consumer focus which is naturally your area, while those are secondary or tertiary considerations for me. I tend to look more at things like:

1. Immigration, potential restrictions on it with social and tax/dependency ratio effects as well as a smaller economy. I rather like a diverse population.
2. European Commission telling Poland it has to change how its supreme court works, something on which the Venice Commission who advise the Council of Europe (not an EU body) also agree. Interesting dichotomy between EU interfering in domestic courts and apparent undesirable local court change.
3. Another union where after around 90 years some states wanted to leave for a combination of civil rights, economic and political differences, with the result that the rest waged war on them to force them to stay in the union.
4. Notable out campaigners who I might less than charitably generalise as often acting like prats who I wouldn't want governing in isolation, so potentially more domestic and international policy extremes.

If it was solely about economics and consumer rights my decision would be relatively easy. The sovereignty aspects are more challenging.

pphillips

An excellent post by Christopher Stravener · Islington
"There's a point I'd add, which is how someone is placed financially also determines how they should/will vote. If you can afford escalating housing costs/rents, private healthcare and schooling for your children, then much of the risk of voting for 'Remain' is mitigated (I suspect you're in that category Martin, and good for you). Otherwise people should really look at the pressures that not being able to control our borders will put onto the NHS, schools and housing, and how that will impact them. Certainly, here in London there is a massive impact. I would also say that those who are in a fortunate position financially should spare a thought for those who are not in this regard: Are we condemning the poorest to overcrowding in schools, health-care and housing, because - make no mistake - population in this country will continue to grow at an incredible rate. I saw a statistic recently that more people came to Britain in 2013 than from 1066 to 1960. What kind of impact will population increase such as this have on the UK in the next 10 to 20 years? Is that the kind of country we wish to live in?"

It seems what Martin is really saying is that on the balance of probabilities it is more likely the rich will have less money in their pockets if we vote to leave.

jennytablina

pphillips wrote: »

Its regrettable that Martin has written a biased article in favour of remain, in which he highlights the risks of leaving the EU and misses out the risks of staying.

To be fair to Martin. He is upfront and honest about where his thoughts lie & does also in turn mention that Remain used his likeness and quoted him without permission. Your not going to get anyone able to really write a true 100% neutral article because it's such a massive issue.

I'ld rather people vote on what facts there are and what their research brings up. Rather than some of the nonsense or short-sighted arguments. It's not an easy decision, while I'm somewhat for "Leave" - I can understand where it excites me, it would scare and even downright terrify others. Because we really have nothing to measure the potential effects of leaving.

Lots of people go "oh people on x side, you trust them to run us?" - when vote has *nothing* to do with electing people. We don't even know how long an "Exit" would take, it would likely become the next Governments issue, not this current one. About the only push it has in terms of people is possibly bolstering Boris or Gove for any leadership challenge post-referendum. That's assuming that does happen.

dcouponzzzz

I'm 27, have owned my first home for 5 years, and would stand to be significantly worse off if we leave. Every month I'm teetering on the edge of my bank account, but never buy anything for wants, only for needs.
Despite this I'm still firmly in the Out team. I struggled to become a homeowner. Will the next generation be able to afford a home with demand outstripping supply? Highly unlikely. If by chance supply rises to meet demand, what is the ecological impact? Tightened greenbelts, less green space and more community centers converted to apartments.

I agree with the above comment. If you have enough money and you don't consider the impact on those worse off than you, to stay in IN has a stronger argument, although take a moment to reflect on whether you're being selfish or selfless.

Dismissing £18bn in such a way without considering/detailing the positive impact on public spending this would have is short sighted. That is assuming that both team's are wrong and there would be no impact on our economy (highly unlikely).

Ignore the bigger picture with numbers in the billions and charts/graphs on immigration, instead look at the smaller picture, the one that shows how a working class family will look in 20 years time.

pioneer22

You are silly you vote leave interest rates will skyrocket to,cope with inflation and you will be even more worse off than you are now.

Gutted for you

dcouponzzzz

Too right pioneer, thanks for repeating what I already said in my own post.

If you vote in then gutted for your kids. Who is more important to you?

pphillips

Pioneer should live up to his name and vote leave. There's no point trying to scare people into staying in the EU by stating an assumption as a fact. As stated in Martin's article "Anyone who tells you they KNOW what’ll happen if we leave the EU is a liar."

hflower74

I'm guessing we will probably have less money in our pockets if we Vote Leave but I don't believe that that will be the case forever. Its like throwing a pack of cards in the air, it will take time to pick them all up again and put them in order but then WE could deal OURselves a better hand. Anyway the reason im voting Leave is because I dont agree with the way things are run at the top its fundamentally wrong.

The_Last_Username

Martin has done his reputation no good with the piece, in my humble opinion.

Whilst his explanations regarding the use of his words by the "remain" campaign are admirable, and indeed his advised

aim is to help you ignore the spin and sales to weigh up the right decision for you, your community, our nation and the wider world too

there are a few too many major omissions.
pphillips in the very first reply to this thread highlights a few.
These omissions sadly do make the article appear biased. *

That in turn may well lead to a demise in Martin's popularity since in this already-polarized referendum people are looking for real reasons to vote for whichever side.
Wait until "but Martin didn't tell us about ........." becomes common - especially in these forums!


* (Mind you, with £8million or so from selling MSE you can't blame Martin for being "risk-averse" and wanting his fortune to be as safe as possible. )