Excel Parking / BW Legal Court Paper

Coupon-mad

It's probably a standard letter about recommending mediation but you'll at least get a decent hearing in a small claim situation and the Beavis case sign will make a nice piece of evidence as a comparison against the notorious Peel Centre signs.

And DJ Lateef's findings from 2011 should help (even though the signs have changed at least twice since, they are NO CLEARER) especially by pointing out how Excel's PCN numbers overall have risen since then (surely better signs should mean a lot less PCNs...oh wait... that's not their aim, is it??! Penalty revenue is their aim; it would seem not parking management).

jollymonkeys

Hi Coupon Mad,

I'm very keen to try and identify how many PCN's Excel have issued in the last say 2 years for the Peel Centre car park. Is this information available anywhere? I know that between 2008 and 2011 they issued 11,498 tickets, but I imagine the signs have changed since then. Is there anymore up-to-date information?

Thanks

Coupon-mad

Don't think so but the BMPA shows you the total (all sites) and we know the Peel centre is a flagship cash-cow for them.

You could try a FOI to the DVLA using 'Whatdotheyknow' asking how many times the DVLA have released keeper data to Excel, specifically under the excuse of 'reasonable cause' at the Peel Centre Stockport, in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and this year to, say, August.

jollymonkeys

Thanks. Just found out they issued 129,000 in 2015 and went to court just 20 times!

Out of interest, would you be able to explain what the difference between a Defence Statement (which I have already had to compile and submit previously) and a Witness Statement is (which I need to submit in the next month)?

Coupon-mad

This should help:

http://www.bmpa.eu/static_witness_statement.php

The figures you mention are from the BMPA I assume; very reliable.

jollymonkeys

Thanks. Having re-read the papers informing me of the court date I need to submit a witness statement for any person (including myself). So I intend to improve my original defence statement and include everything I will be relying on.

jollymonkeys

Hi,

I'm currently finalising my witness statement. I would like to include some photos to support my argument - however, should I reference these within my statement and include them as appendices, or simply have them with me during the court session to support my defence?

Thanks.

System

as appendices

As appendices. If the paperwork is not sent to the other side 14 days before, they can object on the day and the evidential value is lost.

jollymonkeys

Hi all,

I thought I should update the forum with how this progressed. Before I start though I would like to thank those of you who helped me through the process. It's not the easiest thing to do, and the research required takes an awful lot of time but the pointers provided here helped enormously.

I had to go to court a couple of days before Christmas. I'm not sure how much information would be useful and so I've tried to summarise what I think are the important points:

1. My defence was based around 3 key themes:

a) Excel had not identified who the driver of the car was
b) The signs at the car park were unclear, did not comply with regulations and were completely different to those in the Beavis case
c) There are sections of the car park where it appears you can park for free for certain lengths of time without any reference to the terms and conditions which apparently apply to the rest of the car park.

2. My witness statement referred to the fact that my initial and only response to the original PCN had stated that the PCN did not comply with the Protection of Freedom of Act 2012. The solicitor stated that Excel were not relying on the POFA to pursue their claim against me. The judge asked why not, and the solicitor was unable to answer this.

3. The solicitor (a solicitor local to the court I attended) was allowed to ask me a few questions:

a) I was asked whether I was driving the car. I responded that I wasn't going to identify who was driving the car as I didn't believe it was my responsibility to do so.
b) I was asked that if I hadn't been driving the car why didn't I complete the bottom section of the PCN asking me to identify who was driving the car. Again I reiterated that it wasn't my responsibility to identify the driver. Surely the onus was on the party pursuing the claim to identify the driver.
c) I was asked why I had taken the time to develop a full witness statement including photos of the car park if I hadn't been driving. I almost laughed at this and said that I wasn't going to appear in court without having undertaken enough research to be able to defend myself and point out the inadequacies of the claimants case and the car park
d) I was asked whether I wanted to produce a valid pay and display parking ticket for the day in question. I said no.
e) I was asked if I wanted to identify the driver. I said no.

4, The judge asked a few questions:

a) Did I want to identify the driver? I responded no thank you.
b) Had I ever visited the car park? Yes - clearly I had as I needed to visit it to take photos for my witness statement
c) Could anyone else have used my car on the day in question? Yes

5. The judge then summarised his thoughts. Effectively the claimant was relying on there being a contract between me and the parking company and me having breached the terms and conditions of the contract. However, the judge stated that this was putting the cart before horse. Until the driver of the car had been identified there couldn't be a contract between the parking company and any individual. As other people could have driven my car it was not certain that I was the driver and as such there couldn't have been a contract between the parking company and myself. The judge stated that they could consider the signage and layout of the car park, but in effect it was irrelevant. No contract and so no breach. Case dismissed.

I'm not sure if I just got lucky, but either way it's finished now!

I hope this helps other people in the same situation.

Castle

Well done on your win, perhaps you could let the Mediator, (post 42), know:D