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Makes my blood boil
Comments
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An ignorance perhaps only matched by private sector employees who coming close to their own retirement have realised that others may have made better choices re. theirs. Faux concern about the affordability of public service pensions only serve to mask their poor life choices.
That's an irrelevant point though.
You contend that reduction in pension benefits will lead to problems in recruitment and potentially lower quality of staff, I contend that in many cases this is demonstrably untrue due to the ignorance of those staff to the value of the benefit they have accrued.
It seems that they would attract many more and better people by a 10% salary increase and removal of defined benefit schemes.0 -
Wild_Rover wrote: »There HAS TO BE a joke in there somewhere :rotfl: .
WR
the whole thread's become a bit of a joke....The questions that get the best answers are the questions that give most detail....0 -
That's an irrelevant point though.
You contend that reduction in pension benefits will lead to problems in recruitment and potentially lower quality of staff, I contend that in many cases this is demonstrably untrue due to the ignorance of those staff to the value of the benefit they have accrued.
It seems that they would attract many more and better people by a 10% salary increase and removal of defined benefit schemes.
Most of those in public sector roles recognise the worth of their pensions, in fact traditionally they are a motivating factor for people who opt to devote a lifetime to public service.
I would suggest that the more pertinent point to this thread, is that jealous private sector workers recognise their worth in comparison to their own pensions and consequently have got the hump about it.
Re.staff retention, in my own sphere we currently have a staff training college that is desperately trying to reverse the crisis in staffing yet despite spitting out 2200 new recruits in one year the nett gain has been roughly 400. Nobody wants to be in a front line public service with a salary of circa 23k pa with a retirement age of 68 it seems....go figure!“Britain- A friend to all, beholden to none”. 🇬🇧0 -
I think many people in private sector DB schemes equally under value what it is that they have. A contributing factor is that many schemes may have stated an employee contribution and an employer contribution and members therefore overlook the enormous additional amounts that employers have had to subsequently add to reduce deficits. What may have been stated as say a 10% or 12% contribtion originally, may end up being considerably more perhaps as high as 30% or more .... it is just masked by the large capital contributions.
I estimate that after tax my own contribution was less than 5% than the total value of the fund I now "own". Many in the private sector haven't done as badly as they think when compared to the public sector. Not saying "better" but not as bad.
Jeff0 -
Most of those in public sector roles recognise the worth of their pensions, in fact traditionally they are a motivating factor for people who opt to devote a lifetime to public service.
I would suggest that the more pertinent point to this thread, is that jealous private sector workers recognise their worth in comparison to their own pensions and consequently have got the hump about it.
Re.staff retention, in my own sphere we currently have a staff training college that is desperately trying to reverse the crisis in staffing yet despite spitting out 2200 new recruits in one year the nett gain has been roughly 400. Nobody wants to be in a front line public service with a salary of circa 23k pa with a retirement age of 68 it seems....go figure!
Fair enough but your second point rather contradicts the first part of your answer.
The solution would be to increase basic salaries and reduce pensions, what private sector people think is irrelevant. The government is reluctant to do this because it would make the short term financia situation worse, whilst improving it in the longer term, politicians are only interested in the next few years, months or even days.
Out of interest where have the 1800 recruits gone in your example?0 -
I think many people in private sector DB schemes equally under value what it is that they have. A contributing factor is that many schemes may have stated an employee contribution and an employer contribution and members therefore overlook the enormous additional amounts that employers have had to subsequently add to reduce deficits. What may have been stated as say a 10% or 12% contribtion originally, may end up being considerably more perhaps as high as 30% or more .... it is just masked by the large capital contributions.
I estimate that after tax my own contribution was less than 5% than the total value of the fund I now "own". Many in the private sector haven't done as badly as they think when compared to the public sector. Not saying "better" but not as bad.
Jeff
All I can say is 'what private sector defined benefit schemes?'0 -
Take your point but it's truly shocking the ignorance of many public sector staff of the true value of the pensions they are accumulating, which makes you question they are retained. There's a cash flow advantage to teh government in offering pensions rather than salary but many staff would take the money now.
Very true, but it is not just public sector workers it is anyone who has a DB FS or CARE pension.
In my experience, people reach about 55 and then start to think about pensions. Some in DB schemes suddenly realise what a good deal they have. Others in DC schemes who have put in a small amount (say 5%) regret they never paid more. Many others find themselves with a few pensions from moving between public and private sectors and do not understand why some pay more than others.
If people understood more about their pensions when they were younger they might have made different choices at that time. My neighbour is always moaning about his poor pension. The shiny new company car he gets every two years, the subsidised mortgage, the higher salary are all forgotten as he bemoans that he never put more than 4% into his DC pension over the last 20 years. Wrong choice!Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
All I can say is 'what private sector defined benefit schemes?'
There are many of them, some are still in closed to new entrants schemes as well.Active membership of private sector defined benefit (DB) schemes has remained at 1.6 million in 2014 (Figure 3). Active membership of open private sector DB schemes, fell to 0.6 million in 2014 from 1.4 million in 2006
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/pensionssavingsandinvestments/bulletins/occupationalpensionschemessurvey/2015-09-24Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
There are many of them, some are still in closed to new entrants schemes as well.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/pensionssavingsandinvestments/bulletins/occupationalpensionschemessurvey/2015-09-24
Yes, I'd like to see a list of those private sector schemes open to new employees. Think it would be pretty short.0
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