Student Loans

agarnett

Hi kmh120,

It sounds like your daughter has the potential to eventually rise above the burden of the loan, but only if she chooses the right course. Even then, she may have to decide to make it five years before finishing her education not three (in order to do a Masters course (or maybe a PhD) that will put her firmly into the top few percent of candidates for the best jobs).

Is she planning on a Science Technology Engineering or Maths (STEM) course? Those I think are the only types of course where undergraduates from ordinary backgrounds stand a chance of excelling both at university and afterwards, without special help from their families who may not have university and graduate job recruiting experiences of their own to use to advise their children.

Martin of course has been very good at trying to communicate over 5 years to young people what their options are and how the loan scheme works, but he was used by the government and has been badly let down.

He seems unsure now what to do about it - in his recent blogs he has criticised Simon Crowther on a few technical points. Frankly I don't see the point of criticisising a young person who has done more than anyone else recently (especially including Martin) to get the public to start talking about the injustices of the current loan scheme.

Martin largely shies from calling the injusticies "misselling" but that is exactly what has happened and it is as equal a misselling scandal as PPI or any other of the myriad of financial services scandals we have endured as a country over a couple of decades now, and an order of magnitude (or even two!) greater in its effect on individuals. Let us remember that all these loans end up privaised very soon after graduation and the private company vulrures like Erudio are as bad to be in business with as can be imagined.

I don't know what Martin wants for himself (if we were a republic he could easily run for president!) but he is as we know extremely politically adept and has moved mountains to right other scandals.

I detect that he knows that if he fully turned on those who misled him into becoming the official Student Loan Pied Piper a few short years ago, effectively allowing them to hijack his brand to sell the current scheme, and if he threw his full weight behind the misselling tag on student loans i.e. that they were unenforceable despite special legal barriers designed to deny it, then he would completely distract and bring down the government.

I have put enough words in his mouth already but he probably thinks "Then what?". That is the only conclusion I can make on why he hasn't given full support to Simon Crowther's recent spectacular solar flare of a lead (one which will too easily be forgotten inside a week unless we do something about it).

Unhappily, a comment posted by weegillibean just 9 hours ago on that above-mentioned guardian blog may well sum up succinctly the sentiments of an overly large proportion of recent UK graduates:

weegillibean 9h ago
"He spent three years on a sheet of paper
Three years to get twenty years to pay for
It's still hard to graft as hard as your neighbour
Nervous breakdown on your lunch and save your heart attack for later...
He's got his degree, and he's finished his major
It didn't mean !!!! all he's still a minimum-wager..."
The Girobabies
'The Giros'
Bus Stop Apocalypse
https://thegirobabies.bandcamp.com/album/bus-stop-apocalypse-2
Here's a link to the album, enjoy!

Unfortunately, students in England are groomed by the inconsistent UK system to plough on regardless into this part of the broken English education promise, and the "I'm All Right Jack and I got Where I am Today by Striving not by any outside help" brigade (whether they are past graduates themselves or never been uni) and who are taxed far too little at the top end, and at the bottom end paid far too little minimum wage so that they aren't even familiar with the feeling of being involved in the future of the country by paying any significant tax, are constantly knocking those who are calling the problem a misselling scandal. Both ends of that spectrum are equally misguided, but reflect selfish top to bottom ignorant UK culture generally.

The grooming of our kids at school part of the problem makes it especially difficult to dissuade a headstrong high achiever, especially one who is already thrifty and good with their own budget, from heading straight to an English university, which are the best in Europe and the world, right? Hmmm ... best for what? Name-dropping amongst other equally blinkered Brits?

Incidentally, there are at least three separate articles from the last day or two on theguardian.com on the subject. The one the OP originally saw is this one:
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/27/have-student-loan-interest-rates-really-shot-up
and another with a picture of his facebook page containing the letter Simon Crowther sent to his MP is this one:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/may/25/simon-crowther-loan-grew-by-1800-a-year-says-government-misled-students

Kmh120

Thank you both ( all!) so much. This is really interesting. I am very grateful for your input.

I'm talking to my daughter about it a lot and she is passionate about her subject and can't get where she wants to go without a degree + masters + (phD?) so its a given. She's going to Uni and i hope she has a damn good time and enjoys her life there. She tells me to stop fretting. But I feel the injustice for her and it makes me angry. Bl**dy Tories.

If we're going to stay IN Europe shouldnt we campaign for the same rights as other EU countries for our young people?

missbiggles1

Kmh120 wrote: »

Thank you both ( all!) so much. This is really interesting. I am very grateful for your input.

I'm talking to my daughter about it a lot and she is passionate about her subject and can't get where she wants to go without a degree + masters + (phD?) so its a given. She's going to Uni and i hope she has a damn good time and enjoys her life there. She tells me to stop fretting. But I feel the injustice for her and it makes me angry. Bl**dy Tories.

If we're going to stay IN Europe shouldnt we campaign for the same rights as other EU countries for our young people?

Of course, as we're in the EU she could study in another country (in English) and save herself an enormous amount of money.

Naturally, it depends on what subject she wants to study.
http://www.studyineurope.eu/

CLAPTON

Kmh120 wrote: »

Thank you both ( all!) so much. This is really interesting. I am very grateful for your input.

I'm talking to my daughter about it a lot and she is passionate about her subject and can't get where she wants to go without a degree + masters + (phD?) so its a given. She's going to Uni and i hope she has a damn good time and enjoys her life there. She tells me to stop fretting. But I feel the injustice for her and it makes me angry. Bl**dy Tories.

If we're going to stay IN Europe shouldnt we campaign for the same rights as other EU countries for our young people?

you mean you would prefer that other people who don't go to Uni and 'have a good time', should pay for your daughter:

how many timess have you lobbied your MP about wanting to pay more taxes so very young person can have 3/4 years enjoying themselves?
oh those bl**dly tories !

Person_one

andyfromotley wrote: »

There are a number of factors which will determine your financial return.
1. Subject choice - Maths, engineering, medicine etc GOOD French, english art music NOT SO GOOD. 2.Grades - first or 2:1 good - anything else BAD. Lots and lots of top companies where you will earn top top money absolutely demand a first class degree as a minimum requirement to consider you for recruitment. Nothing else will do.
3. University choice - partly because plenty of employers still rate a good degree from a good uni. So russell group is the way to go. But that apart, lower ranked uni's have horrific drop out rates. So you end up with no degree and a heap of student debt. Good luck with that.

One of the saddest things about the tuition fee hike is that education is now viewed in terms of what 'financial return' it offers to the individual. It should be so much more.

andyfromotley

Kmh120 wrote: »

Wow what an awesome response. Thank you very much indeed.

I am concerned about my very talented and smart daughter having £50K's worth of debt. But she says....there's no other way Mum, it is what it is, we have to live with it.

:T

This almost certainly isnt true, its just that the alternatives are usually pretty unpalatable. They include, living at home or with a family member and studying at a local uni. ( whenever i mention this people say, 'oh there isnt one near us' almost always untrue. Its just not the one they want t go to. Work (and parents help) can take care of tuition fees.
Part time degrees.
Open university.
Work and save like bilio for a few years and then pay to go.

Of course kids dont really want to do this (nor parents) but it is going to become more and more normal in due course.

missbiggles1

andyfromotley wrote: »

This almost certainly isnt true, its just that the alternatives are usually pretty unpalatable. They include, living at home or with a family member and studying at a local uni. ( whenever i mention this people say, 'oh there isnt one near us' almost always untrue. Its just not the one they want t go to. Work (and parents help) can take care of tuition fees.
Part time degrees.
Open university.
Work and save like bilio for a few years and then pay to go.

Of course kids dont really want to do this (nor parents) but it is going to become more and more normal in due course.

Living at home is ok if you happen to live near a good university but for many it means going somewhere with low standards which is pretty pointless. Also, unless you're going to scrounge off your family for 3 years, you'll still need some kind of income.

Paying a graduate tax of 9% of your income may still be the best option compared to those you list.

Spendless

Reading this with interest. This weekend we visited some family friends with 2 children. Their eldest wasn't that academic, got some A levels though not great grades. Their youngest, who is just taking A levels, very clever, has had a scholarship to go to a private school for sixth form and offers from Unis, including an unconditional offer.

I asked after their eldest, who is almost 20 and has had a couple of apprenticeships finish after 3 months and now isn't working. Last job was via an agency warehouse work. Their Mum said there wasn't much work available. This is true. We live in an unemployment blackhole and I lost my job at the end of last year and haven't found anything else, so far, had a few interviews that have amounted to nothing. I asked Mum if eldest would consider going to Uni and she said No, because she didn't want him to wait 3/4 years to start working, coming out with loads of debt, possibly not working during Uni.

I was surprised at this attitude. I thought Uni would give him something to do instead of his current situation and even if it didn't directly lead to a job, it could give him a different area to live in, with possibly more opportunities. I saw in 3 years time for him if he didn't go, more of the same, claiming job seekers, minimum wage, zero hour contracts. At least going might change this, even if you can't guarantee it will.

Dill

The State hasn't funded students' higher education since about the late 1980s. Nowadays it is like America, - if you want to get a college degree you have to pay for it. Personally I would rather the government supported the top 2% to go to university, but while they want 50% of school-leavers to "go to uni" someone somewhere has to pay for it. That amount of tuition and maintenance costs can't be funded by taxation.

Lungboy

If my daughter were about to apply for university, I'd be talking her in to studying in Germany. The courses are largely in English, a very high standard and rent + course fees are minimal.