Replace cast iron guttering

J_B

Le_Kirk wrote: »

^^^^ No, you've flummoxed me, what does that have to do with guttering?

Sorry - they charge higher prices in Cheshire - don't you know?

rustyboy21

meanmum wrote: »

I understand all that, and if we'd been given an all in quote including materials that we accepted, then we'd have no grounds to complain. However what he's quoted (actually estimated) is a cost for the labour, but just "plus materials". He tells us he's saved us £500 on these materials by getting us to pay him £1500 in advance.......but now it appears that is not entirely true - more like we've overpaid by £500.
When a builder quotes "plus materials" is he at liberty to charge anything he likes? In this case nearly double the retail cost, when he's almost certainly getting them cheaper.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, you don't know who his source is for materials, so the pricing you have seen, may not bear any resemblence to what he is actually paying. His merchant/supplier may offer discounts/rebates of varying levels. If he is a sole trader with 1 van, a couple of labourers etc, he will be on a totally different price structure to a company with 10 vans, 40 staff and doing, say 30 house fits a week. Not everything is black and white.

The prices you have seen online will most likely be from a merchant, who is just interested in moving units. One large Plumbers merchant I know, has a weird set up for bonuses for the staff. The branch manager is targeted on units sold, not turnover, so will sell to anyone at silly prices. His boss is targeted on turnover of his region, so he isnt bothered about units, only margin aspiration. It is a stupid set up, causes untold grief, bt it has been like this for years. It is usually the more you buy, the better your prices would get in future, not how much you expect to buy from them over the following year.

The supposed retail price you are working on, is that the price on the online store you have seen, or a list price from the manufacturer themselves? If it is the manu price, then take them with a pinch of salt. They are invariably a fictitious SRP, set up so they can then offer a % discount off to the company that wants to buy. I have it all the time. One of my suppliers quotes a list price that I then get 43% off. You may think I live in a big posh house, driving a merc on that margin. I wouln't sell anything if I worked to those prices ! I get what I feel comfortable with to cover my overheads and pay all my obligations, anymore then great.

I know you feel like you have been duped, maybe you have, maybe you haven't. But there are factors you may not be aware of. How do you even know you can actually get the product from the online retailer? There are large numbers of posts on this site, where people have placed orders with co's like this and then waited and waited for delivery , to find out they wont be getting it, as either the co has gone bust, the supplier wont supply them due to bad debt, or they dont deal with the manufacturer in the first place, they are just trying to make their site look better, or doing it to cause trouble for other companies.

You made the fatal mistake of looking at prices after the event, your difficulty now is having the 'charm' to see if your trader is willing to negotiate, he has the upper hand, I wouldn't go screaming at him, you dont (IMO) have any comeback on the deal.

meanmum

Thanks everyone. So is it reasonable to ask for a breakdown of materials costs when he presents the final bill?
I have to say, I've been quite surprised that the concept of marking up materials costs in order to make some hidden profit is seen as normal. I'd naively thought that the labour costs were what he was getting for the job, and judged the reasonableness on that basis......

meanmum

Thanks Rustyboy. I have the manufacturers price list and the first online prices I've found - if I searched further I'd probably find others. I think it reasonable to assume our builder is paying no more than that - which is around half what we've already paid him, supposedly for materials.
We don't have a written or verbal quotation for materials costs, just trusted him not to rip us off.

phill99

Why is it that every home owner thinks they should pay the builder exactly the same as the builder pats their supplier? You dont go to tesco abd say ' you only paid 50p for this bag if sugar, so that is all I'm going to pay ypu'.

We live and operate in a free market which means builders can charge what they wish for materials. The homeowner is at liberty to accept this price or not. Other builders ate available. Its not acceptable to accept a price and then start quibbling over costs.

There is a cost associated with buying materials for customers: the quantities have to be worked out, trips to the supplier, return trips if something is missing or defective, administering the invoice for the goods, getting your accountant (who don't ffer free services) to reconcile it for tax purposes etc. If you as a customer wish to do this in behalf if builders, then go ahead and you will then see the hassle.

CrazyRed

meanmum wrote: »

Thanks Rustyboy. I have the manufacturers price list and the first online prices I've found - if I searched further I'd probably find others. I think it reasonable to assume our builder is paying no more than that - which is around half what we've already paid him, supposedly for materials.
We don't have a written or verbal quotation for materials costs, just trusted him not to rip us off.

I think this is the key point here (my bold). You seem now to be happy with the fact that the materials cost, at retail price, is around half what you have paid, and thus the logical assumption is the other half of the money represents labour. For some fairly heavy, hard work involving taking down iron guttering and downpipes (pound to a penny says at the very least the screws holding the brackets to the wall will be virtually welded in with rust, making removal of the old stuff a relatively long job) round an entire house, and then replacing it with a modern equivalent, sealing it all properly and then giving some sort of warranty worth it's salt to the homeowner and retaining their trust and business is not overly excessive. That could take him a couple of days, working on his own, just to remove the old guttering and downpipes.

His original quote to you was £800 + materials. OK, I'll concur that it's a bit naughty of him to ask for the entire sum up front (as he appears to have, from what you've said in the thread), but there's nothing to stop you asking him to 'justify' the money you've handed over already - if he's reputable and trustworthy, he'll have no issue with explaining where the money has gone to date and how much (if anything) is left in the 'pot'. £1,500 is hardly chicken feed!

meanmum

Maybe I've not explained it clearly enough. He is charging us separately for labour (£800) and materials. He has told us that the materials cost around double what they seem likely to have cost him, so he's raking off an additional hidden profit on that - I can see the justification for a surcharge over what he pays to cover some business costs, but surely not 100%? It also seems slightly disingenuous for him to tell us he's saved us £500 on materials cost by us paying up front, to make it look like he's doing us a favour, when it's nothing of the sort - it just feels like an abuse of trust.

phill99

He can charge what he wishes. You are niave enough to acceot his verbal quote without asking for a cost breakdown. Trust has nothing to do with it.