Pip taking nutrition

Confuseddot

HappyMJ wrote: »

Making poor food choices isn't a disability though. How many people don't eat balanced diets in the UK? Loads...

She can eat something without prompting when she's hungry.

Supervision gets 2 points and prompting gets 4 points so doesn't it make sense that to get 4 points something more than a reminder by telephone should be required such as supervising and constantly prompting the claimant to put the spoon into the bowl and convey the food to her mouth. Supervision alone could just be to make sure the claimant is eating but no prompting is required as the claimant can eat without help. The entry for 10 points would require someone to be constantly spoon feeding the claimant.

Maybe at the first assessment years ago it was put that not only does she need to be supervised she needs constant prompting to eat or she'll just stop eating the meal and her mind wanders on to other things.

The first assessment was last April, Cpn filled in form both times and seemed to be similar questions asked both times. Think we need to get both reports before going further. She doesn't eat when she hungry more than she eats when it's either been days without a meal or someone prompts her and convinces her it's ok.

Just to add one of the reasons she doesn't eat is because she doesn't think she deserves it.

Confuseddot

pmlindyloo wrote: »

I think supervision is more to do with the safety of the claimant carrying out the activity whereas prompting is to do with prompting the claimant to do something, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Often the prompting is needed because of a mental illness whereas the supervision might be to do with safety issues where the claimant has physical difficulties. e.g epilepsy.

That is why I believe that prompting carries more points.

I do agree that poor diet choices wouldn't necessarily meet the descriptor but an awful lot depends on why the claimant doesn't get washed/dressed/eat. If the underlying reason for this is a mental illness, e.g. severe depression, then the claimant would have evidence from professionals to back this up.

Are there other people involved with your friend's care, e.g. friends/neighbours/carers, who could write a statement to document how they found the claimant when visiting (just as an example)?

Your friend could keep a diary of each day saying what they do, why they do/don't do it/how they are feeling.

All the supporting evidence from medical professionals and the medication prescribed would have to back up the claim that your friend's refusing to dress/wash/eat was a result of their illness.

If the CPN isn't available your friend could try a benefit advisor at CAB/local council or an organisation such as MIND.

Thanks she won't speak to anyone else which is half the battle, I spoke to someone at the mental health centre where her CPN is based and they hope she will be back soon... which could be any time really.

So she got the points for promoting on washing/prep food due to mental health issues backed by her GP, CPN and the phycologist she sees once a month. She just didn't get it for the nutrition bit.

If she not entitled thats fine we just need to try and rebudget it just seems strange that everything is the same in both letters apart from this one and the reason being that she not lost weight. The reason she not lost weight is that she makes poor choices when she does eat but for about 1/2 the week she doesn't eat/drink/wash etc

FBaby

So her CPN doesn't call to prompt her every day and despite this, she is managing not to lose weight. The fact that she might not be eating the most healthily is no different to the a large majority of the population, so can understand the 0 point on the basis to get points under nutrition, she would need to evidence that her lack of feeding herself means she is at risk of becoming ill in a short time period (rather than long term like again, a growing number of our population).

Confuseddot

FBaby wrote: »

So her CPN doesn't call to prompt her every day and despite this, she is managing not to lose weight. The fact that she might not be eating the most healthily is no different to the a large majority of the population, so can understand the 0 point on the basis to get points under nutrition, she would need to evidence that her lack of feeding herself means she is at risk of becoming ill in a short time period (rather than long term like again, a growing number of our population).

Not sure i understand what you are saying, not washing doesn't make you ill short time but you get points for that.

I managed to get through on the phones with her speaking first to give me authority and we are getting both reports sent to us in the first instance, they said 7-10 days which gives us a chance to look at them before asking for MR if she decides thats the way to go.

Alice_Walker

Does she have any other problems relating to her lack of nutrition? Vitamin deficiencies, diabetes, dehydration? If someone puts food in front of her will she eat it?

Alice_Holt

The first piont to make is that if your friend asks for a reconsideration then the whole of the PIP will be looked at again. It could go up, stay the same, or decrease / be withdrawn. Both you and your friend need to know there is a risk in asking for a reconsideration.

How many points did your friend get?
For an enchanced award 12 are needed. (8 for a standard award).

It would be helpful if you could briefly indicate your friend's condition, and detail the activities for which she was awarded points and points she scored.

I would look at all the activities and descriptors. Do not concentrate on just one.

Look through this and see if more any other descriptors were inaccuratedly assessed:
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

Does your friend have any aids or appliances which could score an additional 2 points in any activities?
Do the points awarded show any inconsistencies between activities and the points scored? For instance points awarded for needing prompting to wash, but not to dress / undress

Be aware that the assessment should look at if the activities can be done relailably, repeatedly, safely, and in a reasonable time period, and to an acceptable standard. If, for instance, your friend suffered from OCD she may not be able to do activities in reasonable time.

This is the assessment guide:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/449043/pip-assessment-guide.pdf

Page 75 onwards may be helpful.

pmlindyloo has suggested contacting the CAB. This is really good advice. It may be possible that a CPN / health worker / MIND advocate could go along with her.
MIND or her CPN may be able to arrange a direct referral for her, so she may be able to see a CAB caseworker.

This is a good guide to appealing PIP decisions:
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/turned-down-dla-aa-or-pip-or-think-youre-not-getting-enough

Be very alert to the deadlines - esp if your friend struggles with depression:
Mandatory Reconsideration Request within 1 month of the date on the DWP decision letter.
SSCS 1 Tribunal Service form within 1 month of the date on the DWP Mandatory Reconsideration Notice.

The CAB adviceguide has useful info on challeging PIP decisions.

I wish your friend Good Luck.

Confuseddot

Alice_Holt wrote: »

The first piont to make is that if your friend asks for a reconsideration then the whole of the PIP will be looked at again. It could go up, stay the same or decrease / be withdrawn. Both you and your friend need to know there is a risk in asking for a reconsideration.

How many points did your friend get?
For an enchanced award 12 are needed. (8 for a standard award).

It would be helpful if you could briefly indicate your friend's condition, and detail the activities for which she was awarded points and points she scored.

I would look at all the activities and descriptors. Do not concentrate on just one.

Look through this and see if more any other descriptors were inaccuratedly assessed:
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

Does your friend have any aids or appliances which could score an additional 2 points in any activities?
Do the points awarded show any inconsistencies between activities and the points scored? For instance points awarded for needing prompting to wash, but not to dress / undress

Be aware that the assessment should look at if the activities can be done relailably, repeatedly, safely, and in a reasonable time period, and to an acceptable standard. If, for instance, your friend suffered from OCD she may not be able to do activities in reasonable time.

This is the assessment guide:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/449043/pip-assessment-guide.pdf

Page 75 onwards may be helpful.

pmlindyloo has suggested contacting the CAB. This is really good advice. It may be possible that a CPN / health worker / MIND advocate could go along with her.
MIND or her CPN may be able to arrange a direct referral for her, so she may be able to see a CAB caseworker.

This is a good guide to appealing PIP decisions:
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/turned-down-dla-aa-or-pip-or-think-youre-not-getting-enough

Be very alert to the deadlines - esp if your friend struggles with depression:
Mandatory Reconsideration Request within 1 month of the date on the DWP decision letter.
SSCS 1 Tribunal Service form within 1 month of the date on the DWP Mandatory Reconsideration Notice.

The CAB adviceguide has useful info on challeging PIP decisions.

I wish your friend Good Luck.

Thanks for your post.
I understand that she may lose the award not sure she gets that part which is why I suggested we just get the two reports to start with. Hopefully her CPN will be back from being off sick soon as she can help her more that I can.

She has PTSD with anxiety and depression as well as a endometriosis, fluctuating under active thyroid and pernicious anaemia(the 3 monthly injections aren't bringing her levels up enough so she been referred again for that too) She got 11 points 2 each for preparing food, washing, dressing,engaging face to face, manage budget and 1 for managing therapy. 4 for prompting journey. All seems fine and if she not entitled to the nutrition one then thats fine she doesn't want to claim at all. She just struggling with the nothing changed and lost those 4 points and the fact that they calling her liar. Its kind of set of her off again am quite worried about her but I have my own issues so trying to help without making me worse which is easier said than done. She had 3 suicide attempts so far this year and her CPN has said that if the local mental health ward wasn't mixed sex she would be there but realises that the mixed ward would make her worse.

Cuckooclock

DWP insisted that I phone them first for Mandatory reconsideration, would not take it in writing.

Alice_Holt

With 11 points for Daily Living, an appeal may well be worth considering., as if the tribunal awarded just an extra 2 points, this would give the enhanced rate.

In addition to the taking nutrution activity, I wonder if the correct descriptor has been awarded for:
9. Engaging with other people face to face.

b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points
- Which your friend has been awarded or
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.

9c may be more appropriate. Have a look at this from Benefits & Work on this activty:

"Remember ‘reliably’
Even if you can engage socially with other people, you may not be able to do so reliably. For
example, does a single social encounter leave you so filled with shame or remorse that you find it
impossible to face people again for days afterwards?
Also bear in mind that, according to DWP guidance, this activity is about whether you can engage
with people generally, not just with people you know well.

Do you need another person to help you mix with other people?

The form explains that help includes ‘help you need but don’t get’. So, if you manage to mix with
other [people because you don’t have help but it often goes wrong, for example, then tick Yes and
give details in the ‘Extra information, box on the next page.

Do you find it difficult to mix with other people because of severe anxiety

Extra information – Mixing with other people

Tell us more information about the difficulties or help you need to interact with other people.
According to guidance issued by the DWP, social support can include ‘someone directly
experienced in supporting the claimant themselves (for example a family member)’.
So, for example, if you are unable to meet and chat with other people without a close friend or
family member to help prevent you having panic attacks, you need to include this information on
your form.
Do you have problems because:
you misunderstand or can’t interpret people’s facial expressions or body language;
you suffer from extreme anxiety;
you cause offence without meaning to;
you misunderstand what people are saying and become angry or upset;
you are too shy or anxious to speak or make eye contact;
you say whatever you think other people want to hear, regardless of the difficulties it may
create for you;
you suffer from extreme fatigue or very poor concentration, so have difficulty following what
people are saying to you and responding appropriately;
you have to avoid things like shopping, using public transport or going out at times and in
places where you might bump into people you know."



A bit more info from Benefits & Work on Taking food -
"Extra information – Eating and drinking
You should include details of any problems you have with:
motivating yourself to eat because, for example, you often feel too lethargic, depressed or
tired to eat;
knowing when to eat;
remembering whether you have eaten;
getting too anxious or over excited to eat;
not being able to stop yourself eating once you have started;
eating only very small amounts because of an eating disorder.
An upper tribunal judge has decided that a claimant can need encouraging to eat, if, most of
the time the food they do eat without prompting is not ‘of an acceptable standard’, such as
living on coffee and soup. [2015 UKUT 512 AAC) "

I have highlighted the bits that might apply to your friend. This could form the basis of an appeal to the Tribunal Service:
4 points for needing prompting to take food,
4 points (rather than 2) for needing social support to engage socially.

In addition to the 11 Daily Living points already awarded.

BTW Benefits & Work is worth subscribing to if your friend decides to appeal.It has very good guides on appeals and costs c.£20 pa to subscrbe.

Alice_Holt

Cuckooclock wrote: »

DWP insisted that I phone them first for Mandatory reconsideration, would not take it in writing.

The DWP person you spoke to got it wrong.
Always best to request a MR in writing, and keep your copy, as you then have proof of your request.

Here is a link to a suggested MR layout:
http://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178163/mandatory-reconsideration-request.pdf

Thanks to Leicester City Welfare Rights Unit.

They also have some useful PIP guides. http://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178164/personal-independence-payments.pdf