More questions re; ESA

Peter333

Thanks to everyone who helped the other week, when I asked about my neighbour who was waiting to hear about her ESA.

She has heard from them now, but unfortunately has been asked in for an assessment. She says it's making her feel ill and stressed, but the upshot is that she has her appointment on 10th May. She heard from ATOS the other day.

So now she has a few more questions.

She has R.A. and has been on disability benefits for 9 or 10 years. She worked for some 30 years before that. Also she has been on DLA for about 12 years. (Higher rate for mobility.)

She is worried sick she will be taken off ESA, as she has heard some awful things about the ATOS assessment; from internet forums and tv documentaries and so on.

She has days that aren't so bad, maybe one or two a week, but 70% of the time, she struggles to cook, clean, walk more than 30-40 yards etc, and her husband does a lot for her; washing and shopping etc. He works and isn't always there, so we help her sometimes too. Hence she has told us everything.

She told them all this on the ESA50 form, and cannot even fathom why has even been called in. She said 'do they think I am lying?' As of this morning, ATOS have not contacted her doctor or RA specialist; (she asked them.) Is this not a bit odd that they have not contacted them?

We said we think everyone needs to have an assessment, and that they don't think she is a liar... (She hasn't had one for 8-9 years.)

So the questions...

Is she likely to remain on ESA, as she has RA, and is on methotrexate, and is on the high component of DLA for mobility?

Also, if she gets her benefit stopped or gets told she must drop down from the support group to the WRAG group, when she appeals, will she still get ESA paid to her while the appeal is going on? I know some appeals take 6 months for a resolution.

Finally, has anyone had one of these assessments and found it OK? She has heard that they're awful,and that they ask stupid questions like 'can you pick up a empty cardboard box?' And 'can you pick up a pound coin?' (And if you can, you can work!!!) She has also heard people say that the ATOS assessor lies through their teeth, and says totally different things on the form to what the 'patient' says! Like 'yeah they did everything I asked them really easily!' (When they didn't...!)

Thanks for your help.

TELLIT01

It's impossible to say what the outcome of an assessment will be as we don't have full knowledge of how RA affects your neighbour.
Being asked to attend an assessment is absolutely not a case of the claimant being called a liar. The vast majority of claimants are called in. Only those where it is absolutely obvious from the ESA50 the they will be unable to work are assessed purely on the basis of the form.
Your neighbour justs needs to explain her situation thoroughly and understand it isn't a competition to show how much you can force yourself to do. For example, if she has trouble gripping a coin she shouldn't force herself to complete the task.
Being in receipt of DLA/PIP is no guide to whether or not a claimant will also be entitled to ESA. The questions you mention are intended to indicate the level of mobility and it isn't a case of if you answer Yes then you can work.
There were serious problems with the way ATOS ran the assessments and that is why the contract with them ended early. Other companies now run the assessments.
What I'm not clear about is how long has she been on ESA? The implication at the beginning is that this is a new claim yet later you refer to being moved from the Support Group to WRAG.

Peter333

TELLIT01 wrote: »

It's impossible to say what the outcome of an assessment will be as we don't have full knowledge of how RA affects your neighbour.

Being asked to attend an assessment is absolutely not a case of the claimant being called a liar. The vast majority of claimants are called in. Only those where it is absolutely obvious from the ESA50 the they will be unable to work are assessed purely on the basis of the form.

Your neighbour justs needs to explain her situation thoroughly and understand it isn't a competition to show how much you can force yourself to do. For example, if she has trouble gripping a coin she shouldn't force herself to complete the task.

Being in receipt of DLA/PIP is no guide to whether or not a claimant will also be entitled to ESA. The questions you mention are intended to indicate the level of mobility and it isn't a case of if you answer Yes then you can work.

There were serious problems with the way ATOS ran the assessments and that is why the contract with them ended early. Other companies now run the assessments.

What I'm not clear about is how long has she been on ESA? The implication at the beginning is that this is a new claim yet later you refer to being moved from the Support Group to WRAG.

Thanks so much for your reply. Yes you are correct that it's not ATOS. I texted her this morning and said does it say ANYthing on your paperwork to indicate this, and she said no. She just assumed it I think.

So are the assessments not as awful as they used to be then? Have the companies/assessors stopped lying about what people have said? I did notice this morning, that the messages on the forums she was looking at , were from 2011-2012.

Thing is though, there was a documentary about Capita last week, where the man assessing was just vile about the claimant, and where a couple of others put different things to what the claimant said. Are they still going then?

As for how long she has been on ESA; she went on Incapacity benefit around 2007, when she had an assessment, and then was moved onto ESA around 2013. She has never had any other assessments since. Not til this one.

Thanks again.

Alice_Holt

It would help her, if she did some preparation for her assessment.

Namely:
Being aware of the descriptors, and where she scores the necessary 15 points.
Taking examples of how her health affects her ability to cope with these activities day-to-day, to talk to the assessor about.
Taking medical evidence.
Having someone to help her get to the assessment and observe the assessment.

Useful info here:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/help-with-your-esa-claim/esa-medical-assessment/
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-medicals
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-medicals

Alice_Holt

Peter333 wrote: »

She has heard that they're awful,and that they ask stupid questions like 'can you pick up a empty cardboard box?' And 'can you pick up a pound coin?' .

These are not stupid questions as they relate directly to the ESa activities and descriptors the assessor will be looking at.

When replying she needs to be aware that the assessment should look at whether the claimant can do the activity safely, relialbly, repeatedly, in a reasonable time scale, and for the majority of the time. She needs to explain fully and qualify answers. Explain that due to the arthritis she is unable to do these activities relialbly, etc.

deeplyblue

A note about Benefits and Work. Their guides are very good and the help which you can get on the forum invaluable. However, both guides and forum posting are only available to people who have purchased membership of the site - which is (IIRC) about £19 a year. I think that the money is well worth it - even if you got the guidance brochures elsewhere, you would still benefit from being able to use the forum.

A visitor to the site can read the forums - so you'll get an idea of how the process works before you hand over your money.

I used their services when I was preparing my ESA application and I got into the Support Group without even having an assessment interview. I think that was because I had put together a clear case with their help and got all my documentation straight.

I'm now expecting the summons to apply for PIP to replace my DLA and will be using their guides and forum help again.

(Note: when posting to the forum DO read the instructions first - they're having real problems because people just think they can post their problems in any place and with no consideration for those reading it. Everyone understands that you may be desperate and not want the hassle of sorting out your ideas and putting them in the right way, but so is everybody else and the moderators (volunteers themselves) are also desperate with posts that need moving and then editing!)

deeplyblue

She has heard that they're awful,and that they ask stupid questions like 'can you pick up a empty cardboard box?' And 'can you pick up a pound coin?' (And if you can, you can work!!!)

It's not quite such a stupid question as it might appear. What they are getting at is something like, "Could you sit at till in Tesco's and move boxes of cornflakes over a scanner and then handle the money if someone hands you pound coins?" They also have questions about whether you can sit for an extended period which overlaps.

The crucial point which any claimant needs to put over is what you can do RELIABLY, REPEATEDLY, SAFELY AND IN A TIMELY MANNER. If you are filling in the form, you need to tell them not "what you can do " and then leave them to assume you can keep on doing it.

For example: suppose they ask you if you can walk a certain distance. You know that you stagger that far to the kitchen twice a day. You do not say, "Yes." You say, "NO, I cannot walk that distance reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner. I can only manage that distance twice a day or less on a bad day and it takes me 3 minutes using the support of my sticks and pausing for breath. Even when I get there I have to wait a minute until I get my breath back." Get someone to measure the distance you walk and then time you when you are walking at about your usual pace.

Being able to manage a box of cornflakes once, slowly, at breakfast is not the same as being able to keep pushing them over a scanner for a couple of hours without a break.

Be careful how you phrase things - Saying "Yes, I can do this but not safely," may get abbreviated to "Yes" and you are then marked as "able to do activity X" in their computerised scorecard. Say instead, "No, I cannot do this safely," and hope that it will be abbreviated to "No" on that same scorecard.

Tell anyone who is providing evidence for you (e.g. your GP) that they may be asked if you can do something, but the DWP will NOT tell the GP about the reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner clause. They will, however, assume that if the GP says you can do any sample task that you could keep doing it. So tell them and, if you have to appeal, read the stuff from your experts and prepare to defend your case if the "backing" is not specific enough.

Another hint. If your friend is going to an assessment, then she should know that all the assessors use "informal observation". This means that they have CCTV in the waiting room and even in the street outside the building. This means that is someone walks briskly up to the entrance and then unfolds a stick and starts wobbling their way in, the assessors have seen that they can manage OK and are just putting on an act. So watch out and assume that you are being observed from 50 yards outside the centre.

Also be careful that you do not spend hours getting yourself "presentable". I know of one person with quite a good case, who spent hours getting herself well dressed and with full makeup and then gave bright positive answers to the assessor. She didn't get the benefit because she looked and sounded quite capable of working. I think she thought the ESA application should be treated like a job interview - wrong!

They may also try to trick you into reaching out for a handbag or into climbing on to an examination couch without the help that you would normally require for such "activities". You can then find that the assessor has marked you down as "able to reach out" or whatever even though you have told them you can't - they think that you have just demonstrated that you can.

This is a pain - and you may still find yourself with a bad outcome - but you could practice with the help of an able-bodied friend.

The other thing you can do, if you are worried about the assessor making a false record of the interview (which has certainly been known), is to ask to have the interview recorded. You need to tell them about this in advance and be prepared to be a bit bolshie if they say "it isn't convenient". They should then provide (for ESA assessments only) suitable recording equipment and give you a copy of the recording on CD at the end of the interview. Check that the machine is turned on before you start (they have been known to say, "Oh, I must have toggled the On switch - oops, sorry!"). Get someone to go with you to the assessment who knows enough to keep track of this.

You'll find all this stuff and more on the Benefits and Work site (DO use their search facility to find things on the forum - don't just post saying, "I know you've written this stuff for someone else, but please spend half an hour typing it all out for me so I won't have to use "Search"), but I hope these few hints will help.

TELLIT01

That's one of the best explanations of what to expect and what to do that I've seen deeplyblue.
I did smile when I saw mention of 'informal observation'. When I worked on ESA we had an assessment office in the same building. A colleague came back in one lunchtime to say he'd followed a guy down the road who had a pair of crutches over his shoulder. Just before he got within sight of the office this guy stopped, set himself on the crutches, and then 'hobbled' the last bit to the assessment centre. It does happen, so the assessors do have to take care that they are not being conned. I must stress that I am not suggesting the person referred to by the OP falls into that category.

Peter333

Brilliant help from everyone. Thanks so much. I will pass this on to my neighbour.

I will also keep you posted about the outcome.

constantworrier

Sorry to say but yes they are still lying. Did it to me. Had assessment on April 8th and 23rd April got the result 0 points. Couldn't believe it and when I read the reasons why I saw that the nurse had lied about a few things. They also lied about ringing and speaking to me on April 20th which was completely untrue, no one has rang me. They said I agreed on the phone that I had no more evidence to offer, a completely blatant lie. Disgraceful. Also the letter said my money was stopped from April 20th.

Icequeen99

I can't offer help on the ESA side of things, but eventually she will also be moved from DLA to PIP. High rate mobility on DLA equates in money terms to enhanced rate of PIP. The criteria is tighter than it was on DLA for the mobility part (PIP is more generous in my opinion in other ways but not in this respect) and she would have to show she can't walk more than 20m the majority of the time (which doesn't sound the case from what you say).

It might be worth preparing her for the move to PIP at some point.

IQ