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APCOA appeal if accidental error is ours?
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chica0208
Posts: 22 Forumite
Hi, looking for some advice please. We (I couldn't possibly say who was driving though...!) recently parked at Bristol Parkway train station, thinking that we had AutoPay set up to take payment for parking. AutoPay had been set up on our previous car, and although we now have a new vehicle, the registration plate is the same as it's a personalised plate, so we assumed (incorrectly) that the ANPR cameras would recognise the reg. and charge us using AutoPay, as before. Once we realised our error we updated the system with the new vehicle's details, although the reg. plate remains the same.
(One thing I should add here is that, upon inspection now, it looks as though no AutoPay payments have been taken from our account since last September, since the card details had the incorrect expiry date. We are flummoxed as to why we haven't received any correspondence asking for updated details, or, any more 'fines', as we do park there a lot! Any ideas/thoughts on how to approach/handle this? Should we just leave it, as technically any Notice to Keepers now would be out of the 15 day date range, since last year? Is this 100% bulletproof?)
Anyway, back to the current issue... we have now received two 'fines' for two separate dates in February, we have tried to appeal these to APCOA but of course have been rejected, and now have a POPLA code. So, I have a couple of questions: firstly, is it worth us appealing as it's a parking charge notice (not enforceable), on railway land (railway byelaws?), no proof of driver, and most importantly perhaps, the notice to keeper arrived in the post AFTER Day 15 so technically is this too late anyway for them to 'fine' us?
Secondly, you can pay via LatePay, and we are wondering if it would help or hinder our case if we paid the right amount now, for the days in question - as technically we haven't actually paid to park and of course are more than happy to do so! We weren't intentionally flouting the rules, it was a genuine error, and we're more than happy to pay retrospectively for parking but don't feel that a £100 fine is justifiable!
And finally, the appeal rejection letter from APCOA says that they'll uphold the discounted £50 if we pay now, but that if we appeal to POPLA then it'll go up to the full £100 from now onwards - are they allowed to do this!? Isn't this kind of blackmailing you into not taking your appeal any further!?
I have read about 50 different posts and forums on here and various other sites and am trying my best to get my head around it all but some guidance would be appreciated! Thanks so much in advance. Apologies for the long post :-)
(One thing I should add here is that, upon inspection now, it looks as though no AutoPay payments have been taken from our account since last September, since the card details had the incorrect expiry date. We are flummoxed as to why we haven't received any correspondence asking for updated details, or, any more 'fines', as we do park there a lot! Any ideas/thoughts on how to approach/handle this? Should we just leave it, as technically any Notice to Keepers now would be out of the 15 day date range, since last year? Is this 100% bulletproof?)
Anyway, back to the current issue... we have now received two 'fines' for two separate dates in February, we have tried to appeal these to APCOA but of course have been rejected, and now have a POPLA code. So, I have a couple of questions: firstly, is it worth us appealing as it's a parking charge notice (not enforceable), on railway land (railway byelaws?), no proof of driver, and most importantly perhaps, the notice to keeper arrived in the post AFTER Day 15 so technically is this too late anyway for them to 'fine' us?
Secondly, you can pay via LatePay, and we are wondering if it would help or hinder our case if we paid the right amount now, for the days in question - as technically we haven't actually paid to park and of course are more than happy to do so! We weren't intentionally flouting the rules, it was a genuine error, and we're more than happy to pay retrospectively for parking but don't feel that a £100 fine is justifiable!
And finally, the appeal rejection letter from APCOA says that they'll uphold the discounted £50 if we pay now, but that if we appeal to POPLA then it'll go up to the full £100 from now onwards - are they allowed to do this!? Isn't this kind of blackmailing you into not taking your appeal any further!?
I have read about 50 different posts and forums on here and various other sites and am trying my best to get my head around it all but some guidance would be appreciated! Thanks so much in advance. Apologies for the long post :-)
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Comments
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all action taken against an owner is via the VRN , the VRN (not make .model colour etc) is passed to the DVLA who then state the keepers name
any whitelist or payments taken in the past or future should be on the VRN not the make model etc
looking back at when you registered , or if you register now , what questions are you asked,
please add yes / no to the following
1:name/ address
2:card number
3:VRN
4:No of doors
5:colour
6:make
7:model
8:inside leg measurementSave a Rachael
buy a share in crapita0 -
There was a post on the POPLA Decisions thread, referring to a Byelaws win by a poster called Dunmel.
Have a read of that and any other recent PoPLA decisions you can find that may help in that thread plus those linked in Post 3 of the NEWBIES thread.
As far as the suckers discount period, it is allowable but why pay any attention to it? You are looking for the 100% MSE discount.
Definitely appeal. What happened on the day is irrelevant, just use the all the usual legal appeal points you will find in those threads especially the "not relevant land." Once it is past 6 months, the landowner is out of time to make a claim. The parking scumpany have no standing to take this to court.
Edit.
Another PoPLA win against APCOA has just appeard for "not relevant land." In this case it was an airport, but otherwise worth a look.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
And finally, the appeal rejection letter from APCOA says that they'll uphold the discounted £50 if we pay now, but that if we appeal to POPLA then it'll go up to the full £100 from now onwards - are they allowed to do this!? Isn't this kind of blackmailing you into not taking your appeal any further!?
It doesn't go UP. This is normal for any PCN, including Council ones in the real world. The parking charge/penalty is ALWAYS the full amount (in this case £100). It is 'all or nothing' if you appeal, of course, that's never been any different re any type of PCN and the 'discount' is merely a bribe not to appeal.
Paying now would be daft, though! Seeing as there are APCOA cases all over the forum including page two right now where APCOA just threw in the towel when they saw a forum-led POPLA appeal. And seeing as the worst case scenario is if you lose you still don't pay because POPLA isn't binding on you and APCOA are not litigious, so a mere flurry of letters would follow. Big deal.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thank you for this, Coupon-Mad. I don't mean we would pay the 'fine', I just wondered if we should log into our account and use LatePay to pay retrospectively for parking for the days in question, so that we can at least say there really is no genuine loss of earnings (or whatever the terminology is). But, would that actually hinder our case in the long term, as does it actually implicate us as admitting to not having paid in the first place!? (albeit accidentally!) Sorry if I'm missing an obvious point here - am new to this! Thanks :-)0
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if you pay now (latepay) then there was no offence , how can they take this to POPLa/IPC / court if you have proof of payment.
latpay is setup for late payments , and as long as the terms and conditions (clearly written) don't say "do not use latepay if you are being hounded by our debt collecting idiots" then its acceptable and correct to pay it
you could also argue that the latepay option should have been clearly mentioned on the "fine" / invoiceSave a Rachael
buy a share in crapita0 -
Yes if it's possible to do so, why not? Sounds reasonable. APCOA will generally back down from a strong POPLA appeal though.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks both. Just tried to do so via 'LatePay' and it turns out you can only do it up to 24 hours in the past, so basically, the next day, that's it! So, no can do there, after all.
Never mind - we have compiled all the points we think we can make for the POPLA appeal and may well post it here if anybody fancies a skim read, all the legal jargon is rather long-winded! Thank goodness for other people with similar experiences sharing their own letters as I'm using these as templates.
Thanks again!0 -
Hi, me again. Sorry, am becoming completely overwhelmed with all the forums and threads and advice and template appeals I've been reading, I think it's possible to read TOO much information on this! :-s
Anyway, I have a query - having just re-checked the original letter from APCOA, and having read the BPA front to back, I am concerned about this (posted all the keeper liability bits here) - I don't actually think the letter we received mentions anything at all about POFA or states that the keeper is liable, nor does the reminder letter, so does that mean that APCOA aren't trying to use POFA to claim keeper liability anyway, and therefore we can't include this in our appeal? E.g. it is railway land and therefore not relevant land for POFA to apply so they can't hold the keeper liable, but it seems as though they aren't trying to hold the keeper liable anyway?
EDIT: Having just gone 'back to basics' on the newbies thread, have re-read this statement: "A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Notice to Keeper' or 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a random letter from a debt collector - it is still your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it is the first letter to arrive." So does this mean, absolutely, that APCOA are trying to hold the keeper liable, as there was no notice to driver on the day of the alleged contravention?
Back to original post: This also defeats my complaint about the NTK not being served in the 15 days as required, because they chose to contact the DVLA first and don't seem to actually be holding the keeper liable anyway...?
Edit: the 15 day thing is confusing me - should they have stuck to it, but how can they be expected to, if they have to also approach the DVLA for keeper details?
Sorry - I know I sound even more confused now - any advice much appreciated! Just checked the POPLA expiry date online and we have until Monday 16th May to appeal...
Making use of Keeper Liability provisions
21.5 If you want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and you have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the car park where the parking event took place, your Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule
(in particular paragraph 9).
Not making use of Keeper Liability provisions
21.6 To give drivers early notice of your claim, you should apply to the DVLA for the keeper
details promptly. Usually this would be applying to the DVLA no more than 28 days after the
unauthorised parking event.
21.7 You must post the parking charge notice to the keeper as soon as possible.Your target is to
send the parking charge notice to the keeper of the vehicle no more than 14 days after receiving
the keeper data from the DVLA.
21.8 Your letter to the keeper should point out the details of the unauthorised parking event and
ask for payment or request details of the driver. If you are not making use of the keeper
liability provisions of POFA or you are unable to achieve the deadlines specified therein, your
letter must not reference POFA or state that the keeper is liable.
21.9 It is the driver’s responsibility to pay the parking charge notice. If you receive
information from the keeper which identifies the driver, and the driver is someone else, you must
serve the parking charge notice by post on the driver.0 -
Hi all,
Right, I have (I think!?) got my head around this sufficiently to draft my POPLA response - please can somebody have a look through and check there's no glaringly obvious error in here!? And/or anything obvious that I have missed?
Thank you very much in advance! :-)
Dear Sirs,
Re: PCN No. xxxx
I am the registered keeper and this is my appeal, based on the points below.
1) Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’
2) No keeper liability
3) Non-compliant signage, forming no contract with driver
4) Lack of standing / authority from landowner
1) Railway Land Is Not ‘Relevant Land’
Since byelaws apply to railway land, the land is not relevant land within the meaning of PoFA and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. I ask the Operator for strict proof otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the Rail authorities that this land is not already covered by byelaws. Railway land, being governed by Byelaws, is not relevant land and Keeper Liability under POFA does not apply, and therefore APCOA are unable to pursue the registered keeper in lieu of the driver’s details.
2) No keeper liability
Having re-checked the date on the Notice to Keeper issued by APCOA, the driver is not known in this case. POFA 2012 Schedule 4, Paragraph 9, requires that, in order to make use of the provision to pursue the registered keeper, APCOA must send a Notice to Keeper within 14 days of the alleged contravention. The alleged contravention happened at Bristol Parkway railway station on 19th February 2016. The Notice to Keeper was issued on 14th March 2016 and therefore presumed to have arrived on 16th March 2016, which is 26 days after the alleged contravention. APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd has therefore failed to issue a Notice to Keeper in the required timeframe, and therefore the registered keeper cannot be held liable in this instance for the alleged debt of the driver.
3) Non-compliant signage, forming no contract with driver
The signs do not meet the minimum requirements in part 18 of the BPA code of practice. They were not clear and intelligible as required. The BPA Code of Practice states under appendix B, that entrance signage: “must be readable from far enough away so that drivers can take in all the essential text without needing to look more than 10 degrees away from the road ahead.”
For a contract to be formed, one of the many considerations is that there must be adequate signage on entering the car park, and furthermore a Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home “so prominently that the party ‘must’ have known of it” and agreed terms. I contend that this is not the case, and question the fact that the driver saw any sign specifying the amount of the ‘fine’ that would be due, and so there was no consideration or acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties. The sign upon entering Bristol Parkway railway station car park does not even mention the amount of the parking charge at all, which is in breach of 2(3) of schedule 4 of the POFA and contrary to the BPA code of practice. Upon inspection of another sign elsewhere in the car park, the terms of the ‘fine’ are in very small typeface which therefore means that this sign is not clear or prominent enough to form any contract with a driver before parking. Such an onerous obligation should be the most prominent part of the sign, as is stated in Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule.
4) Lack of standing / authority from landowner
APCOA has no title in this land and no BPA compliant landowner contract assigning rights to charge and enforce in the courts in their own right.
BPA CoP paragraphs 7.1 & 7.2 dictate some of the required contract wording. I put APCOA to strict proof of the contract terms with the actual landowner (not a lessee or agent). APCOA have no legal status to enforce this charge because there is no assignment of rights to pursue PCNs in the courts in their own name, nor standing to form contracts with drivers themselves. They do not own this car park and merely appear to have a license to put signs up and employ the use of ANPR, merely acting as agents. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that APCOA are entitled to pursue these charges in their own right.
I require APCOA to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated (unredacted) contract with the landowner. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice and does not allow them to charge and issue proceedings for this sum for this alleged contravention in this car park. In order to refute this it will not be sufficient for the Operator merely to supply a site agreement or witness statement, as these do not show sufficient detail (such as the restrictions, charges and revenue sharing arrangements agreed with a landowner) and may well be signed by a non-landholder such as another agent. In order to comply with paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner - not merely an 'agreement' with a non-landholder managing agent - otherwise there is no authority.
I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge is dismissed.
Yours sincerely,
What do you think? Thank you!0 -
There was a bylaws APCOA one the other day but I think it was about an Airport.
However there was a station one which covered the fact the appellant could not be held liable under the bylaws either (think it was an Indigo or 'MET' thread).
Try searching for 'train station bylaws POPLA' to find very recent examples which include a point about the bylaws not being able to hold a keeper liable/not having been breached.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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