Life in prosperous independant nations - awfull? 'Isolated' Irrelevant'?

Conrad

How are prosperous independent nations managing their way in the world given Remains core arguments around independence being synonymous with 'isolation'?


Here are some core arguments where Remain equate independence with 'isolationism' and 'impotence';



+ Independent Britain would have less influence in the world


+ Wont be able to effectively take part in cross-border issues such as the GW challenge


+ Will somehow be less secure, wont be able to share intelligence


+ Will somehow be 'well down the pecking order' in terms of the priorities of large states such as China (in spite of China not managing to reach a trade deal with the EU, but has one with NZ, Australia, Swizterland, Iceland et al)


+ Wont be able to efficiently find her way in the world



So the thing I want to know is that given it's so damned awful being an independent state, what is life like for those poor Kiwis, Japs, South Koreans, Singa's, Aussies and Canadians?

Presumably no EU citizen chooses to migrate away from the marvellous EU?

Conrad

Must be hell having one's own seat at all the global trade, security and environmental bodies and task force's, hell.


Fancy having full responsibility for ones own affairs, brrrr, I shiver at the prospect

mayonnaise

Yay, a brexit thread!
Haven't seen one of those for a while.

Conrad

mayonnaise wrote: »

Yay, a brexit thread!
Haven't seen one of those for a while.

Life in New Zealand must be horrendous, difficult to trade, no influence, no ability to co-operate across borders on security and intelligence, so so sad.


I guess they yearn to set up a political union with their neighbours rather than making do with a trade power bloc

cells

Conrad wrote: »

So the thing I want to know is that given it's so damned awful being an independent state, what is life like for those poor Kiwis, Japs, South Koreans, Singa's, Aussies and Canadians?

Presumably no EU citizen chooses to migrate away from the marvellous EU?

Seeing as its mostly about migration and not economics, we can clear Canada Australia SouthKorea Singapore Kiwi as nations you want to copy

Of those nations only Japan would be comparable for the 'no more population growth' referendum


And Japan Economy GDPppp/Capita is pretty much where it was 20 years ago. While that GDPppp/Capita of the other nations you list which have had growing populations has powered ahead

So thanks for proving your own point is silly

Conrad

cells wrote: »

Seeing as its mostly about migration and not economics, we can clear Canada Australia SouthKorea Singapore Kiwi as nations you want to copy

Of those nations only Japan would be comparable for the 'no more population growth' referendum


And Japan Economy GDPppp/Capita is pretty much where it was 20 years ago. While that GDPppp/Capita of the other nations you list which have had growing populations has powered ahead

So thanks for proving your own point is silly

I haven't mentioned immigration so your entire response here is to something I have not even asked.


See my OP

cells

Conrad wrote: »

Life in New Zealand must be horrendous, difficult to trade, no influence, no ability to co-operate across borders on security and intelligence, so so sad.

They along with most of your first post examples have high population growth thanks to migrants.


Australia total fertility 1.9
NZ 2.05
Canada 1.6
Singapore 1.3
S-Korea 1.3

All of them are growing rapidly and not due to a baby boom. Australia especially the poster child of a 'correct migrant system' is growing at about twice the rate as the UK.

So if we wanted to copy an Australia. We would leave the EU but double out migrants coming into the UK and have a population growth of 1 million a year



If that is what you are proposing. Leave the EU but increase population growth to 1 million a year then yes I suspect we could emulate a successful high migration country like Australia


If on the other hand this is a vote for leaving the EU and pushing migration and population growth towards zero then you only have Japan to look at. A country where the GDPppp/Capita is lower than all your other examples and where the GDPppp/capita is about what it was 20 years ago

cells

Conrad wrote: »

I haven't mentioned immigration so your entire response here is to something I have not even asked.


See my OP

you cite those nations are successful and do well outside the EU

Is that because they are outside the EU or is it because they are talking on a lot of migrants?

Only Japan in your list is the one taking on little to no migrants and seeing no population growth. The rest are not comparable.

Conrad

Cells, I posted a list of key arguments given by Remain, here are some of them again;


+ Independent Britain would have less influence in the world, 'an irrelevant little island drifting off into the north Atlantic'


+ Wont be able to effectively take part in cross-border issues such as the GW challenge


+ Will somehow be less secure, wont be able to share intelligence



......................


So given remain makes these arguments every day, I am asking as how other independent nations are faring on these fronts?


Particularly the argument we are somehow isolated and irrelevant as an independent nation.


Are the nations I mention suffering impotence and irrelevance unable to work with others on security and tackling climate change?

cells

Conrad wrote: »

Cells, I posted a list of key arguments given by Remain, here are some of them again;

I dont care what 'remain' key arguments are as put forward. The main topic for both sides is population control (mostly via stopping migration) they just cant say it like that.

So lets look at flat population countries or declining population countries do you like what you see?

I agree with your first post that Canada/Aus/NZ seem to be doing well so lets emulate them. What you had not realised until now is that those countries are high migration high population growth countries.


So yes if it was a vote out to copy Aus and let in a million+ migrants a year I can see that the UK would prosper. But since its more of a vote out to copy Japan and see a declining population then I can not see that being a long term positive and likely a long term negative

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

I dont care what 'remain' key arguments are as put forward. The main topic for both sides is population control (mostly via stopping migration) they just cant say it like that.

So lets look at flat population countries or declining population countries do you like what you see?

I agree with your first post that Canada/Aus/NZ seem to be doing well so lets emulate them. What you had not realised until now is that those countries are high migration high population growth countries.


So yes if it was a vote out to copy Aus and let in a million+ migrants a year I can see that the UK would prosper. But since its more of a vote out to copy Japan and see a declining population then I can not see that being a long term positive and likely a long term negative

it would seem your sole and only criteria is growth
not per capita growth
or quality/quantity of housing per capita
or quality /quantity of transport system per capita
or access to health care
or acces to beautiful uncrowded open spaces
or ....... any quality of life considerations
your one and only concern it 'growth'