Times Plus - tell me straight: am I screwed?

marr0g

So I'm usually pretty careful about cancelling those tricksy newspaper subscriptions where you sign up "FOR JUST £1!" and then you get an automatically renewed contract in the small print.

But this one seems ridiculous. Back on October 19th I apparently signed up for a Digital £1 for 1 month deal - I do not remember doing this and I have no email trail for it anywhere (and I keep sign up emails RELIGIOUSLY), but I seem to have a login with my usual password so I guess I must've? I really don't see why I would have but there it is.

TWO DAYS after the £1 payment went out, they took another £338. My PayPal and bank call this a subscription to 'Times Plus' which I DEFINITELY didn't sign up for - I assume it was hidden in the small print.

No, I didn't notice - basically there was a LOT of money going in and out of my account at the time and my PayPal emails go to an email account I don't use much, so I literally didn't see it.

They've ALSO been taking £26 off me every month which is more or less in line with their £6 per week but seriously, *£338*, what on earth?

So here's my question: is it worth me trying to do ANYTHING about this?

I'm not complaining about the £26 per month - that's my own fault for not remembering to deregister and please don't tell me what an idiot I am because I KNOW, no rubbing-it-in required, but:

1. Is it 'reasonable' not to expect that TWO DAYS after paying £1 for 1 month's subscription you will be charged *£338* for some unknown thing - I don't even know what it can have been FOR since they've continued to take money so it wasn't a pre-paid year or anything. I suppose it's possible that they didn't take the £1 'til the END of the first month and that's why they look so close together (with no emails at all I have no idea - I checked the previous month's archives too) but even then, isn't that an unreasonably MASSIVE amount of money to hide in a TOS?

When I go to the Times+ website to try to look at my account details I get a 'no access' message even though my subscription is paid for this month (though I obviously cancelled it on PayPal as soon as I saw it so I guess they could've done an immediate automatic lock-out?). Even if that's hidden somewhere in the TOS a massive payment going out two days after you sign up for a '£1 for 1 month' deal is SURELY not something you could 'reasonably' expect to happen? Right? Don't companies have an obligation not to hide stuff like that now?

2. Am I long past the time when I could've challenged this even if I did have a reasonable challenge?

3. IF there is anything I can do, how do I go about it? I still have one day (ONE DAY why God) to lodge a dispute with PayPal though I'm not sure what my grounds would be. What else could I do? Obviously I could talk to News UK/Ireland though I assume they'll just cackle and hang up on me?

Basically if this is a totally hopeless case I'd rather just kiss the cash goodbye and call it a very expensive life lesson. But if I have a shot at getting that initial outgoing back, I'd really like to know the best way of going about it.

Has anyone got experience of this particular clusterfrack or read about it on here? My Google Fu is pretty strong but I'm finding this one VERY hard to search on.

Help me, MoneySavingExpert! You're my only hope!

pinkshoes

It does say on their website that it is a minimum of 12 months, but that would be the £26/month you are paying.

I cannot find any reference to An upfront payment of such a large amount.

Phone them and query it.

LABMAN

How did they get your details other than you giving them though? You claim to religiously do one thing financially and then don't notice substantial amounts of money being taken...that does not quite add up.

marr0g

I religiously label and archive my 'admin' emails in my main account - the one that the subscription is signed up with.

My _PayPal_ account notifs go into an old account due to the age of my PayPal, and I just log in once in a while and 'mark as read' and archive those into my 'admin' folder THERE.

There was nothing from Times Plus or what-have-you in either of those, and I keep every subscription email I ever recieve.

What I _wasn't_ watching religiously is my bank balance. That's due to the fact I've been renovating a house for two years, ergo the sum of £300-odd was missed entirely because I (a) don't log in to my old email very often, as mentioned and (b) have a lot of money going in and out in very irregular amounts.

As evidence that I do my digital admin, I offer up the fact that I DID have the archived PayPal email from that October payment - I noticed it while doing the first archive run of the year and went "Huh, why am I paying those guys?" and clicked on the first instance - old and already archived - and went "Holy hell." I just clearly hadn't read it. I'd obviously gone in, seen a PayPal payment in among all my other PayPal payments (video game orders, Patreons, etc) and simply marked as read and archived.

So as you see, I DO have an admin trail from that payment, but it doesn't include _anything_ from the Times.

As to them getting my details: I assume I DID sign up for this £1 for 1 month Digital package thing. It will have had a trial cancellation period which I will have forgotten about and missed. I don't remember these things, but I'm assuming they did happen and if I'd logged in and seen those £26 per month payments going out I would've sighed, called myself an idiot, cancelled and moved on.

But that £338 is _13_ months at £26 per month. If it had been a pre-paid year, that was it paid, so why would I still be making monthly payments? I can't find ANYTHING about a bulk outgoing.

So what doesn't add up? What I'm asking is:

Is anyone aware of the current laws around 'reasonable expectations' with Terms of Services and how people have been getting on with disputes? I know they changed last year.

If you don't believe that I had £338 taken out of my account by the Times, I can whip you up some screencaps. But if it hadn't happened why would I be here?

If your comment is: "How are you this much of an idiot to miss that money coming out of your account?" I explained that in brief, and now at length. Taking that as read, do you have any advice for things I can do now, today, about that problem - up to and including: "There's nothing you can do, call it a life lesson and move on."

cookie365

Your 'usual password'? Oh dear.

marr0g

My 'usual password' being a series of long pass phrases - all different - sequentially assigned using different words and numbers dependent on the type of site, domain and type of account.

I work in the web. I'm not THAT kind of idiot.

Does anyone other than the lovely pinkshoes have any advice to offer about the issue I posted about?

marr0g

Like I'm not being funny or anything but I acknowledged that I'd been an idiot not to pay closer attention to my bank account or remember to cancel this subscription in my OP, and I've just found out I'm out several hundred quid. So is the sniping really needed? I usually see a lot of really helpful commentary on this site.

J_B

pinkshoes wrote: »

Phone them and query it.

/\ /\ /\ This

0800 018 5177 or 020 7022 6620

I have always found hem most helpful, sometimes maybe a little desperate to 'sell' and 'do a deal'.

For our £26, we get a paper token to exchange for a printed copy each day - if you haven't had this, then maybe you have reason to demand a refund due to un-supplied goods.

[Deleted User]

I'd advise contacting paypal, saying the money was taken without your permission and you are not receiving anything for the costs taken. It is unfortunately a bit late for the £338. Are you paying £26 a month in addition? Does sound like something fishy is going on.

But when I have made such claims with Amazon, its never been queried, I just received a refund.

marr0g

J B: Thanks - Do you get any emails from them? I think the subscription I must have been given was their 'digital' package - am unsure if that would come with vouchers? It's hard for me to tell as their website bounces me about a lot between the same few pages and I have no members area access... It's definitely £26 I'm paying same as you though.

deannatrois: thank you! PayPal have a180 day window for setting up a dispute - would this count as that? I'd be just under the line if I opened it tomorrow! Yes, £26 has come out every month over and above. I would eat that particular humble pie to get the £338 back though - forgetting to cancel is my stupidity. The massive lump sum seems... just like it shouldn't be the sort of thing you should be allowed to hide in small print.

[Deleted User]

You can only try.., I don't really see how asking for the £388 back excludes you from also asking for the £26 payments back as well. Remember the payments aren't allowing you access to anything / u are not paying it FOR something as far as you can tell, so it should not be being taken. It may also have been set up without your permission if the terms of the offer weren't clear. Sometimes you can think you are asking for a free offer, and find you've signed up for a monthly deal you pay a fortune for.

Paypal does have its uses lol (as in you can get refunds)

No absolute guarantee of success but its definitely worth a try.

Paypal are usually pretty aware of 'risky' clients. I know when I paid for some goods from Wowcher that never turned up, I had a refund within two days. Wowcher themselves were completely unhelpful. I should imagine I'm not the only person to ask for a refund for goods ordered through there. Didn't even have to go through an extended complaints procedure.