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Park With Ease - Lake District Parking
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Risk007
Posts: 5 Forumite
HI, I am new to this forum and have been desperately skimming through the various links.
My wife and I parked at what we thought was a National Trust Car Park at Silverthwaite in the Lake District on December 27. We did not notice any signage on enterring the car park and parked close to the pay machine. It had a notice on it indicating it was out of order (not working) and given there were other cars parked without windscreen pay on display tickets, we decided to leave the car. Because of the sign on the machine we did not closely examine the machine or anything written on it or near it. The sign did not indicate in the same size of print that we must make payment online.
We were in the carpark just over 3 hours.
We went to Brasil for 8 weeks beginning January 20th returning March 21st. We recovered all our mail on March 22nd and found two letters from Park With Ease.
1 dated 25 January was Parking Charge - Notice To Keeper, indicating we had 14 days to pay unpaid Parking Charge £25 otherwise the charge would be £50 or if not the driver to notify name and address of driver. The letter indicated charge "relates to the perriod of parking that immediately preceded the issue of notice, charge having been incurred for the reason as stated above and liability for the same having been brought to the attention of the driver by clear signage in and around the site at time of parking.
2. dated 9 February was Parking Charge - Remains Unpaid, indicating charge was now £50 stating payment must be made within 14 days after which legal action would be taken without further correspondence.
We do not dispute we parked the car in the car park but believe the signage was anything but clear as we hade not seen signage at the entrance. We saw no indication that CCTV with number plate recognition was in use. Because of the sign on the machine indicating it was out of order, we did not look more closely at any other information on the machine as this was not of the same size.
On Wednesday, I contacted National Trust who we believed owned the Car Park. In the meantime, I complained to the Parking Company letter as follows...
I refer to your letters sent to my wife dated 25 January and 9 February.
We are willing to pay for the actual charge for the period referred to in this correspondence but not the increased penalty charge (either £25 or £50). Background to this is as follows...........
My wife and I are frequent visitors to the Lakes but seldom use a car when there. We spent an enjoyable Xmas at Lindeth-Howe and after a dreadful year it was well needed. My wife was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer in late 2014 and early 2015 involved chemotherapy followed by surgery with removal of both breasts and finally 3 weeks of radiotherapy.
On 27 December, our wedding anniversary, we decided to drive to Skelwith Bridge and take a walk. A friend had suggested we park in the National Trust car park at Silverthwaite. The last time we used a National Trust car park was many years ago and involved a man collecting money at the entrance! We drove into the car park and could see no indication of the parking or monitoring arrangements, no signage whatsover, and only a pay machine which we assumed to be like any other machine - choose the amount of time, pay and attach the receipt to the windscreen. When we approached the machine, there was a notice on it indicating it was out of order with no information on alternative payment arrangements. We decided to leave the car in the car park as there were other vehicles parked there.
On 20 January we flew to Brasil for an extended visit from which we returned on the evening of March 21 (Monday this week). Yesterday we received all our mail for the 8 week period of absence and found 2 letters from Park With Ease.
The first letter dated 25 January (over 4 weeks after the parking event) headed Parking Charge - Notice To Keeper, indicated that a parking charge (amount not specified) for our vehicle from 11.29.00 until 14.44.21 on 27 December had not been paid and that this charge had now been increased to £50 with a rebate of £25 if paid within 14 days.
The second letter dated 9 February heading Parking Charge - Remains Unpaid, indicated that if we did not pay the £50 within 14 days, legal action would be taken without further correspondence with us.
I am appealing this charge on the following grounds
1. At the entrance to your car park there is no barrier.
2. At the entrance to the car park there is no clear signage (I cannot recall any signage whatsoever) indicating the parking arrangements for the car park - including reference to use of CCTV with automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) effective on entering and leaving, the need to pay for exact time spent via the pay machine and in the event this is not working, via the Pay With Ease website within 48 hours. I do not believe your signage complies with the British Parking Code of Practice
3. The pay machine was covered with a notice indicating it was out of operation. It would be reasonable therefore to assume it was not working, If there were other payment arrangements it would be reasonable to assume that these would have been shown on the machine in a written size equivalent to the wording indicating machine was out of order. This was not the case.
4. From a strict procedural perspective I believe that Park With Ease has contravened the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges. This schedule is very complicated but referring to the Guidance Notes...
Paragraph 6.2 reads
Where a contravention is detected remotely (such as by cameras), the landholder may request registered keeper data from the DVLA immediately and must write to the registered keeper within 14 days seeking details of the driver or payment of the parking charge.
Park With Ease issued their request to the Registered Keeper (Letter 1 on 25 January) well over 14 days from the time of parking.
5. I will willingly pay immediately for the actual time spent in the car park at the rate which would have applied on the day. I cannot find on the Pay With Ease website what that charge would have been.
I look forward to hearing from you.
They responded yesterday rejecting my appeal, with comment as follows.....
Upon entering the site you entered into a contract to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure (online) or pay a parking charge notice of £50 (reduced to £25 if paid within 14 days).
There are 3 signs on this site, including 1 on the entry, 1 on the exit and one by the kiosk. Our signage has been audited by The IPC our Accredited Trade Association and is fully compliant.
We have not claimed to and are not seeking to pursue the matter using POFA 2012 we therefore have no requirement to issue letters within any particular time frame.
Since you failed to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure the parking charge notice has been issued correctly.
I have written further to them
1. Requesting photos of the signage - in the meantime I have asked a friend in the Lakes to visit the car park and take photos of the signage etc.
2. I have reminded them of the fact that we only returned to the UK on March 21 and therefore could not have made the discounted payment of £25.
Unfortunately National Trust has now confirmed that they ceased to lease the land in 2007 when it was taken back by Lowther Estates. I have written by email to them but have not yet received a response. I will try to call them on Tuesday after the bank holiday.
Park With Ease has offerred IAS as a further appeal avenue but given comments on the forum, I assume this will be a waste of time as we are not denying we parked there?
Can you suggest any further action I might take given that we have not denied parking in the car park and have expressed a willingness to make a reasonable payment.
Lastly the fact that I could not have seen the letters until March 21 - does this entitle me to pay the discounted sum? I was thinking I would send a cheque for this amount by post (online I can only pay the £50)
My wife and I parked at what we thought was a National Trust Car Park at Silverthwaite in the Lake District on December 27. We did not notice any signage on enterring the car park and parked close to the pay machine. It had a notice on it indicating it was out of order (not working) and given there were other cars parked without windscreen pay on display tickets, we decided to leave the car. Because of the sign on the machine we did not closely examine the machine or anything written on it or near it. The sign did not indicate in the same size of print that we must make payment online.
We were in the carpark just over 3 hours.
We went to Brasil for 8 weeks beginning January 20th returning March 21st. We recovered all our mail on March 22nd and found two letters from Park With Ease.
1 dated 25 January was Parking Charge - Notice To Keeper, indicating we had 14 days to pay unpaid Parking Charge £25 otherwise the charge would be £50 or if not the driver to notify name and address of driver. The letter indicated charge "relates to the perriod of parking that immediately preceded the issue of notice, charge having been incurred for the reason as stated above and liability for the same having been brought to the attention of the driver by clear signage in and around the site at time of parking.
2. dated 9 February was Parking Charge - Remains Unpaid, indicating charge was now £50 stating payment must be made within 14 days after which legal action would be taken without further correspondence.
We do not dispute we parked the car in the car park but believe the signage was anything but clear as we hade not seen signage at the entrance. We saw no indication that CCTV with number plate recognition was in use. Because of the sign on the machine indicating it was out of order, we did not look more closely at any other information on the machine as this was not of the same size.
On Wednesday, I contacted National Trust who we believed owned the Car Park. In the meantime, I complained to the Parking Company letter as follows...
I refer to your letters sent to my wife dated 25 January and 9 February.
We are willing to pay for the actual charge for the period referred to in this correspondence but not the increased penalty charge (either £25 or £50). Background to this is as follows...........
My wife and I are frequent visitors to the Lakes but seldom use a car when there. We spent an enjoyable Xmas at Lindeth-Howe and after a dreadful year it was well needed. My wife was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer in late 2014 and early 2015 involved chemotherapy followed by surgery with removal of both breasts and finally 3 weeks of radiotherapy.
On 27 December, our wedding anniversary, we decided to drive to Skelwith Bridge and take a walk. A friend had suggested we park in the National Trust car park at Silverthwaite. The last time we used a National Trust car park was many years ago and involved a man collecting money at the entrance! We drove into the car park and could see no indication of the parking or monitoring arrangements, no signage whatsover, and only a pay machine which we assumed to be like any other machine - choose the amount of time, pay and attach the receipt to the windscreen. When we approached the machine, there was a notice on it indicating it was out of order with no information on alternative payment arrangements. We decided to leave the car in the car park as there were other vehicles parked there.
On 20 January we flew to Brasil for an extended visit from which we returned on the evening of March 21 (Monday this week). Yesterday we received all our mail for the 8 week period of absence and found 2 letters from Park With Ease.
The first letter dated 25 January (over 4 weeks after the parking event) headed Parking Charge - Notice To Keeper, indicated that a parking charge (amount not specified) for our vehicle from 11.29.00 until 14.44.21 on 27 December had not been paid and that this charge had now been increased to £50 with a rebate of £25 if paid within 14 days.
The second letter dated 9 February heading Parking Charge - Remains Unpaid, indicated that if we did not pay the £50 within 14 days, legal action would be taken without further correspondence with us.
I am appealing this charge on the following grounds
1. At the entrance to your car park there is no barrier.
2. At the entrance to the car park there is no clear signage (I cannot recall any signage whatsoever) indicating the parking arrangements for the car park - including reference to use of CCTV with automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) effective on entering and leaving, the need to pay for exact time spent via the pay machine and in the event this is not working, via the Pay With Ease website within 48 hours. I do not believe your signage complies with the British Parking Code of Practice
3. The pay machine was covered with a notice indicating it was out of operation. It would be reasonable therefore to assume it was not working, If there were other payment arrangements it would be reasonable to assume that these would have been shown on the machine in a written size equivalent to the wording indicating machine was out of order. This was not the case.
4. From a strict procedural perspective I believe that Park With Ease has contravened the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges. This schedule is very complicated but referring to the Guidance Notes...
Paragraph 6.2 reads
Where a contravention is detected remotely (such as by cameras), the landholder may request registered keeper data from the DVLA immediately and must write to the registered keeper within 14 days seeking details of the driver or payment of the parking charge.
Park With Ease issued their request to the Registered Keeper (Letter 1 on 25 January) well over 14 days from the time of parking.
5. I will willingly pay immediately for the actual time spent in the car park at the rate which would have applied on the day. I cannot find on the Pay With Ease website what that charge would have been.
I look forward to hearing from you.
They responded yesterday rejecting my appeal, with comment as follows.....
Upon entering the site you entered into a contract to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure (online) or pay a parking charge notice of £50 (reduced to £25 if paid within 14 days).
There are 3 signs on this site, including 1 on the entry, 1 on the exit and one by the kiosk. Our signage has been audited by The IPC our Accredited Trade Association and is fully compliant.
We have not claimed to and are not seeking to pursue the matter using POFA 2012 we therefore have no requirement to issue letters within any particular time frame.
Since you failed to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure the parking charge notice has been issued correctly.
I have written further to them
1. Requesting photos of the signage - in the meantime I have asked a friend in the Lakes to visit the car park and take photos of the signage etc.
2. I have reminded them of the fact that we only returned to the UK on March 21 and therefore could not have made the discounted payment of £25.
Unfortunately National Trust has now confirmed that they ceased to lease the land in 2007 when it was taken back by Lowther Estates. I have written by email to them but have not yet received a response. I will try to call them on Tuesday after the bank holiday.
Park With Ease has offerred IAS as a further appeal avenue but given comments on the forum, I assume this will be a waste of time as we are not denying we parked there?
Can you suggest any further action I might take given that we have not denied parking in the car park and have expressed a willingness to make a reasonable payment.
Lastly the fact that I could not have seen the letters until March 21 - does this entitle me to pay the discounted sum? I was thinking I would send a cheque for this amount by post (online I can only pay the £50)
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Comments
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Have you read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES yet?
Since the PPC is with the IPC you have two options.
1 Ignore for 6 years unless you get real court papers.
2 Appeal to the IAS kangaroo court and then ignore for 6 years unlss you get real court papers.
The NEWBIES thread explains all this and also why it is safe to ignore debt collectors.
Nobody here will suggest you pay these scammers. You have offered to pay for the period you parked. They have refused. Paying them will only allow them to continue this scam.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
This from the Cumberland & Westmorland Herald will explain,
http://www.cwherald.com/a/archive/lowther-trust-takes-back-control-of-two-lakeland-car-parks.299114.html
Don't expect any joy from the landowner, this is about money making!
PWE are an IPC member and through their blood sucking solicitor friends will take you to court.
You have two choices either pay up or fight it all the way. These people aren't reasonable.
We can help with photos etc; but be prepared.
The NEWBIES thread explains all but do some research on PWE threads on here and Pepipoo.REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER SERVED COLD0 -
Thanks for coming back...yes I did quickly look at this.
What is the damage if I get court papers? Will that be a civil or criminal case?
If I was willing to pay the £25 to get them off my back, have I a right to argue that the 14 days could not start until the letter was actually delivered to me?
Do you have any stats on how many parking companies actually refer cases to court and how they decide which ones to refer and which ones not to pursue?0 -
If you or colleagues are near Silverthwaite, I would welcome your thoughts on the signage.
Dont know what you think to my suggestion that I pay the discounted fee and argue that the letter could not be delivered to me until I returned to the UK this week...and therefore I am entitled to the 14 days ^discount^?0 -
This is a civil debt for what they consider an unpaid invoice. If you lost in court you are looking at costing £150 or so.
Unfortunately, the IPC is run by a firm of solicitors who also like making money out their members so all the ppc gets is a even bigger bill.
IPC members can't realise they are being taken for a costly ride.
Going to court is a no win for the ppc, it only makes them think they are winning.REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER SERVED COLD0 -
The letter is deemed to have been delivered within two days of posting.REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER SERVED COLD0
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frankly, I dont think any of your arguments above would hold up in civil court
courts are a lottery and they have 6 years to bring a court case, your defence would have to be based on sound legal arguments and I doubt that any of your story would help your case, it could hand it to the claimant as a slam dunk
you admitted to parking , you did not pay, either at the machine or by phone , so they deem that the driver broke the parking contract by staying and not paying
its a honey trap you fell into, compounded by all the delays
they are sc@mmers running a sophisticated sc@m and they have you over a barrel, so they wont let you off for a few pounds , not when they have richer pickings in a court claim of which they know more than you do
I think parking prankster blogged about them, plus they have been in the papers
asking us what we think of your defence or circumstances is irrelevant, we dont make the decisions , a court does
they are likely to take you to civil court
if you lost I anticipate the cost to be over £200
you then have maybe 28 days to pay the judgment (if you lost)
they have 6 years to pursue this unpaid "invoice"
admitting you were driving means you can be held responsible and POFA2012 does not apply
the IPC and IAS are sc@mmers, a kangaroo court where their interests far outweigh yours
this is not a criminal charge or offence, its a civil case about contract law
their letter is deemed "delivered" in law, 2 days after they posted it , all they have to do is have proof of postage , not proof of delivery
no the 14 days does not start when its convenient for you, ie:- not on your return
the medical issues are not relevant0 -
I concur with Redx.REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER SERVED COLD0
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Thanks both. Depressing so it is really not worth the grief and aggravation of fighting as I will not win. Worth going after the signage issue?0
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You will find that now Easter has arrived they will have altered the signage to increase the prices.
Although it is hard, just take a lesson. Fit a dash-cam, very useful in these cases and mine got me off an unjustified bus lane charge.
Only use NT and Council car parks if you can and be extremely vigilant on others.
Sorry to hear about your case unfortunately the world is not as nice as we would like it to be.REVENGE IS A DISH BETTER SERVED COLD0
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