Possible sacking facing gross misconduct

Guest101

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

*sigh* - as some appear to be entering a pedants' competition, I did use the word 'or' not 'and' (to cover both employer or other commitments) so I think your point is a bit redundant and I'm puzzled why you felt the need to make it in the first place as it adds nothing to the thread.

To be factually accurate? You feeling a bit touchy today?


GPs are self employed, they can do what they like. I actually agreed with what you said, just highlighted a difference between those employed (such as the OPs wife) and those self employed.

Gavin78

Well while I'm not trying to excuse her lateness and yes I would expect an employer to give some concessions which they have done this still never answered the question she raised with them.

1. I have been late and I have signed in late when I have been

2. I noticed that some of my times have been altered to a different time e.g scribbled over in pen to a different time

3. I asked the head to look into this and he said he new who it was who had been changing the times in the sign in book/fire register

4. it came to light in the meeting that the officer manager was the one changing the times in the book (claimed to have witness as well to the wrong times written in) so no questions were raised as to how far back the time alterations were going on and it was never mentioned by the head in the management instruction that false times were being written in

5. The head decided that no action against the person doing it was going to take place as he decided it was justification on their part.

6. other half asked for copies of records of these signing ins and has been refused

7. they admitted the clock was wrong that people used to sign in but couldn't say how wrong it was but have since corrected it to the right times

As for paid time off she didn't ask for it and explained that the course was paid for through the student loans so wouldn't need any financial assistance from the school.

But as I said she put the calendar dates for the whole year out so it was no dark secret from the school she was trying to hide it was there for all to see and as soon as he asked for the tutor to get in touch she did that right away. While he has said she was getting paid for the time out he still hasn't indicated whether she can still go out of school away from semester time and only indicated that was was getting paid for it.

So in the meeting with the HR officer after easter she's going to bring this up as per her Unions advice as to whether this issue was paid time out and not the fact she was going out as the letter doesn't indicate this.

As for getting paid for it Fbaby my OH would have taken it out as unpaid her aim was to better herself for the job role in the school not to abuse it.

In any event some advice given here as been pretty useful and sometimes hearing a difference side of it from someone elses perspective sometimes makes sense of things

Gavin78

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Oh do get a grip - thousands of children are delivered to child care every day by people in all walks of life.

Can a GP, police officer, train driver etc just expect to stroll in late over 10 times and expect their employer (or patients, passengers etc) to just suck it up?

Stop with the overly emotional attitude and accept the facts - your wife is required to attend work on time - she didn't comply - she was under-performing as a result.

No excuses.

Aside from what you said she's ok now and settled. while I'm not making an excuse here but these lates came in November and was in a big block they weren't sporadic lates e.g 1 day here and then another day there.

I don't know whether this will make a difference in the meeting.

I hope you understand that I'm going to defend my OH don't get me wrong I was a little annoyed with her over the lateness to work because I didn't know myself how bad it was.

But I'm not going to back down on her out for Uni because I know she was there and I know 15 years and 2 degrees later she wouldn't throw it all away for £140 - Gross Misconduct in her job means the possible chance of working in that area of work again will possible never happen not to mention our daughter losing her nursery place and routine and the 30k worth of debt that will come with it.

There isn't really much more to say now I'll read the comments and comment back if need be but I'll report more once I know more

Takeaway_Addict

Gavin78 wrote: »

Well while I'm not trying to excuse her lateness and yes I would expect an employer to give some concessions which they have done this still never answered the question she raised with them.

To be fair the employer did give leniancy...14 times before pointing out that it was becoming out of hand.

Guest101

Look, she's got a union rep who, if they know their stuff, will say:


The lateness issue was addressed. The parent is entitled to parental leave to care for their child. The parent chose not to take this. As such she was late on x occasions, you were aware of this and addressed it. There is no issue with time keeping at present.


You, headmaster, chose to allow paid leave on Thursdays, you failed to document this. She wrote into the diary that she would be absent on all Thursday afternoons, you accepted this at the time.


Proposed solution - she takes off only Thursdays when there is actual lectures/seminars/etc.

FBaby

I really think she is going to struggle to defend herself. You (she) are trying to justify that nothing was her fault. It's not her fault that someone changed her times, it's not her fault that the Head didn't pick up that she was taking every Thursday off, regardless of whether she was attending the course of not.

All it needs to take for an employee to dismiss someone is to say that they have loss faith/confidence in the employer and as such can't continue to employ them. They don't have to prove they had a good reason to do so, if it went to court, they would only have to show they had circumstantial evidence.

[Deleted User]

Got to be fair - late 15 TIMES.

OP - How late are we talking for these 15 times? 5 mins each time (in which I would agree that employer is being a bit off) or significantly more?

I'm the first to stick up for people putting family first etc and employers/clients being a bit lenient and understanding. BUT 15 times does seem a bit much to me.

And whether its right or wrong we've got the issue of incorrect logging time and that accidental time off when in college. No wonder employer has started to lose their patience.

Bottom line is your personal situation is none of the employers concern ultimately. Yes if they kick off when an emergency happens once then fair enough. BUT there are plenty of people who have kids, got issues like this and if they can manage to get in on time most of the time.... Know what I mean....

Gavin78

[quote=[Deleted User];70376402]Got to be fair - late 15 TIMES.

OP - How late are we talking for these 15 times? 5 mins each time (in which I would agree that employer is being a bit off) or significantly more?

I'm the first to stick up for people putting family first etc and employers/clients being a bit lenient and understanding. BUT 15 times does seem a bit much to me.

And whether its right or wrong we've got the issue of incorrect logging time and that accidental time off when in college. No wonder employer has started to lose their patience.

Bottom line is your personal situation is none of the employers concern ultimately. Yes if they kick off when an emergency happens once then fair enough. BUT there are plenty of people who have kids, got issues like this and if they can manage to get in on time most of the time.... Know what I mean....[/QUOTE]

We are talking about a couple of mins no more than about 5. I'm not excusing her lates and I know he's be fair with them and when she has been late she's wrote in the sign in book she's been late.

What I am concerned about is the office manager altering a legal document. without knowing her works policy I would be under the assumption that it would be an offense to alter such a document once it had been signed.

I could of understood it if she had been pulled into the office by the head and stated that she was putting the incorrect times in "as supposedly witnessed by another office member" but when she was given the management instruction it never stated that this was such a case and only mentioned her lateness.

It was only my OH that brought it up with the head that she was concerned her times were being altered and didn't know who was doing it and he said I know who it is it's the office manager. this was after the management instruction.

So skipping forward she was given a letter for dishonesty for the thursdays out and her Union didn't know about this but had a sickness review so when they went into the meeting the lates, dishonesty was all brought up as well. (her sickness is ok) it suddenly went from my wife bringing up the question to him about someone altering her times and him knowing to suddenly forget the management instruction we are now adding the lates into the disciplinary as well now and they are now saying she has been putting the wrong times in and the manager has been putting the right times in. but in the midst of all this admitted the clock for signing in was wrong and had been put right.

Her Union questioned why after knowing the she was possibly putting the wrong times in he didn't take action then and suddenly change his mind and take it to a disciplinary after already issuing and instruction which didn't indicate times had been altered. his answer "because I can"

So take the lates away I'm not arguing them late is late my point I'm getting across is how far do these alterations go back have times been altered that shouldn't have been altered. they won't give OH copies of the last 12 months sign in sheets so she can confirm them with them they just took dates into the meeting but not recorded times.

Hence the reason the Union has told her not to speak with him about anything as he's changing goal posts to suit the situation.

FBaby

What I am concerned about is the office manager altering a legal document. without knowing her works policy I would be under the assumption that it would be an offense to alter such a document once it had been signed.

But trying to show someone else has broken a rule doesn't change anything about their issue with honesty regarding your wife.

It is become clear that the office manager got fed up with seeing your wife putting a different time on the timesheet to what she believe to be the right time and seeing her getting away with it, so she started changing the time. The Head probably told her off for doing it BUT probably expect that he believes her that your wife has been clocking the wrong times. That's the problem, when you are not totally open about some things (ie. that she wasn't on her course out of term), you also don't believe the rest and once again, he doesn't have to prove that her wife was really late, showing that there was a number of reasons that lead him to stop trusting her is enough.

What I am concerned about is the office manager altering a legal document. without knowing her works policy I would be under the assumption that it would be an offense to alter such a document once it had been signed.

That's probably because it would make no difference to what she says, he doesn't trust her any longer.

Undervalued

[quote=[Deleted User];70376402]Got to be fair - late 15 TIMES.

OP - How late are we talking for these 15 times? 5 mins each time (in which I would agree that employer is being a bit off) or significantly more?

I'm the first to stick up for people putting family first etc and employers/clients being a bit lenient and understanding. BUT 15 times does seem a bit much to me.

And whether its right or wrong we've got the issue of incorrect logging time and that accidental time off when in college. No wonder employer has started to lose their patience.

Bottom line is your personal situation is none of the employers concern ultimately. Yes if they kick off when an emergency happens once then fair enough. BUT there are plenty of people who have kids, got issues like this and if they can manage to get in on time most of the time.... Know what I mean....[/QUOTE]

There is no actual legal requirement for the employer to show any latitude at all. The OP's wife is entitled to short periods of unpaid leave to attend to emergency situations with dependants, that is all. Anything else is entirely the employee's problem and if the employer wants to play hardball they can.

The situations described earlier on about the child at nursery are totally irrelevant. So too is the alleged falsification of a document by the employer. Two wrongs do not make a right.