Chimney Stack Support

ydrol2

Hi , bought mid-terrace house in 2005. Chimney breast removed in upstairs bedroom, but not properly supported.

I want to sort this before renting the property.

I have spoken to a structural engineer whose plans would involve laying a steel beam across both load bearing walls.
I haven't appointed/paid them yet. Cost about £350+vat

They said I strictly need two party wall agreements ( approx 800+vat * 2!) assuming no disputes!

I've not got a quote from the builder yet, but I did call Lewisham Building Control and spoke directly to a surveyor.
He said he would sign off on Gallows Brackets, 10mm bolts, resin bond, 9" steel reinforced lintel (or 2 * 4") , bolts in brickwork outside flue. Neighbour still has chimney breasts on their side. Just "keep the neighbours sweet".

I have a builder lined up. If the quote is OK . I think I will go for the gallows bracket approach, with council sign off.

Rather than getting structural engineer plans for laying beam that affects neighbours on both sides.

Anyone see any problems with this?

phoenix_w

If you're on good terms with your neighbours you don't need to pay anything for a "party wall agreement" - there are plenty of pro-forma docs you can pilfer online which will give you something they can sign which will allow the work to commence without cost.

Alternatively, just go ahead and do the work and ensure it can be done quick enough so they can't get an injunction against the work. Once the work has been done there's nowt anyone can do - it's against the spirit of the party wall act, but if you don't get on with your neighbours and you've hired a builder who is legit with public liability insurance, then I'd be tempted.

PasturesNew

phoenix_w wrote: »

If you're on good terms with your neighbours you don't need to pay anything for a "party wall agreement" - there are plenty of pro-forma docs you can pilfer online which will give you something they can sign which will allow the work to commence without cost.

Alternatively, just go ahead and do the work and ensure it can be done quick enough so they can't get an injunction against the work. Once the work has been done there's nowt anyone can do - it's against the spirit of the party wall act, but if you don't get on with your neighbours and you've hired a builder who is legit with public liability insurance, then I'd be tempted.

I'd go down this route, mentioning when speaking with the neighbours ".... as I'd hate it to collapse inwards and bring down your wall with it!"

They'll sign anything then!

phil24_7

Your structural engineer seems to be a bit of a rouge. Most will be very familiar with gallows brackets and it is the most common way to deal with chimney removal! He also seem to be lining up screwing you out of a lot of money to draw up party wall agreements!

I would steer clear of him and find another structural engineer you will do you drawings and specs for gallows brackets!

kie-ade

The steel beam method of support is usually considered a better method, so I'm not surprised the Engineer suggested that.

In my experience Building Control have excepted the 'gallows bracket' method but have still required an Engineer to design/detail & provide calculations to prove it works safely.

As has been said, you shouldn't need a party wall agreement if your neighbour's are happy for you to go ahead (via a party wall notice) but it would be useful, if possible, to take photos to record the condition of both sides of the wall before work commences.

ydrol2

I asked the Struct.eng. about Gallow Brackets. They said

We won't design gallows brackets. They impose a bending effect on the party wall which it wasn't intended to carry. Visualise the effect if both neighbours do the same thing. In our opinion a beam or beams is the only safe option.

I think I have following options:

1. Install Gallows bracket to council specifications. (1 party wall) + Building Control sign off

2. Buy Engineer plans (£350+vat) and install beam (2 party walls) + Building Control sign off

3. If neighbour is in agreement remove entire stack? No building control, no 'real fires' for neighbour either. (We'd def need to agree in writing in this case) - less keen on this unless significant savings.

I'll get quotes for 1 & 2 (possibly 3), and make sure builder has suitable insurance, and make a decision.

I'm on good terms with both neighbours (at the moment!), so I'll forego party wall agreements (£1600 +), I'll just mention it to them and possibly ask them to take pictures in thier loft before work starts ,just in case. (except option 3 as mentioned before)

Sound ok?

EssexExile

We won't design gallows brackets. They impose a bending effect on the party wall which it wasn't intended to carry. Visualise the effect if both neighbours do the same thing. In our opinion a beam or beams is the only safe option.

Surely the point of a structural engineer is to calculate the bending effect & determine whether the wall can take it or not?
And if both neighbours did the same thing at the same level wouldn't the bending effects cancel each other out?

dominoman

EssexExile wrote: »

And if both neighbours did the same thing at the same level wouldn't the bending effects cancel each other out?

Exactly what I was thinking

kie-ade

I think the problem is that you have a top heavy loading supported on a much slender wall which isn't ideal & certainly wasn't designed in that way.
Why would a professional Engineer take the risk of suggesting that Structural solution when he believes there is a better & safer method?